Discussion:
Copyright violation to give away videotapes?
(too old to reply)
Fred Goodwin
2009-07-01 03:16:11 UTC
Permalink
I know its illegal to tape NFL games and sell those videotapes.

But I'd like to give away my collection at no charge (other than the
cost of shipping) -- is that also a copyright violation? Over the
last ten years or so, I've taped maybe 30-40 football games and now I
find I no longer have room for the tapes (and I don't have the gear to
convert them to DVD). Rather than simply throw the tapes out (bad for
the environment, right?). I'd like to give them away to a fan who'd
like to have them.

This isn't a veiled attempt to auction them off to the highest bidder
-- it would be first-come, first-served to anyone who can cover the
shipping costs.

Still a copyright violation? If so, then is my only alternative to
throw them out? If someone fished them out of the landfill, how would
that be any different than my giving them away?
Barry Margolin
2009-07-01 03:55:42 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Fred Goodwin
I know its illegal to tape NFL games and sell those videotapes.
But I'd like to give away my collection at no charge (other than the
cost of shipping) -- is that also a copyright violation? Over the
last ten years or so, I've taped maybe 30-40 football games and now I
find I no longer have room for the tapes (and I don't have the gear to
convert them to DVD). Rather than simply throw the tapes out (bad for
the environment, right?). I'd like to give them away to a fan who'd
like to have them.
The Betamax decision said that videotaping for personal, time-shifting
purposes is OK. IANAL, but I think that once you distribute the tapes,
it no longer falls within those parameters.
Post by Fred Goodwin
This isn't a veiled attempt to auction them off to the highest bidder
-- it would be first-come, first-served to anyone who can cover the
shipping costs.
Still a copyright violation? If so, then is my only alternative to
throw them out? If someone fished them out of the landfill, how would
that be any different than my giving them away?
I think you need to erase the tapes before you dispose of them.
--
Barry Margolin, ***@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***
Fred Goodwin
2009-07-01 06:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Margolin
I think you need to erase the tapes before you dispose of them.
I hadn't thought of that -- but seriously, do people erase their tapes
before throwing them out?
Barry Margolin
2009-07-02 00:06:34 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Fred Goodwin
Post by Barry Margolin
I think you need to erase the tapes before you dispose of them.
I hadn't thought of that -- but seriously, do people erase their tapes
before throwing them out?
If you throw something out, you don't generally expect someone to dig
through the garbage. You're not distributing the copies, you're
discarding them. But if you give the tapes to others, you're probably
supposed to erase them first.

People don't actually do this. People share videos they've recorded off
TV, or mix tapes, all the time. That doesn't make it legal, it's just
under the radar.
--
Barry Margolin, ***@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***
Roger Schlafly
2009-07-01 15:11:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Margolin
The Betamax decision said that videotaping for personal, time-shifting
purposes is OK. IANAL, but I think that once you distribute the tapes,
it no longer falls within those parameters.
The OP made those tapes for personal time-shifting purposes,
so that should be okay. He is not proposing to distribute the
tapes; he is just unloading his personal copy that he legally
created and possesses. He can give away something that he
owns. He does not have to erase the tapes.
Barry Margolin
2009-07-02 00:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Schlafly
Post by Barry Margolin
The Betamax decision said that videotaping for personal, time-shifting
purposes is OK. IANAL, but I think that once you distribute the tapes,
it no longer falls within those parameters.
The OP made those tapes for personal time-shifting purposes,
so that should be okay. He is not proposing to distribute the
tapes; he is just unloading his personal copy that he legally
created and possesses. He can give away something that he
owns. He does not have to erase the tapes.
So if you make the tapes for a legal purpose (time-shifting), you can
then use them for an illegal purpose (distribution)? Watching the tape
once yourself avoids it being a copyright violation? What if you never
got around to watching it at all? Is it just the original intent that
matters?
--
Barry Margolin, ***@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***
Fred Goodwin
2009-07-02 04:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Margolin
So if you make the tapes for a legal purpose (time-shifting), you
can then use them for an illegal purpose (distribution)?  Watching
the tape once yourself avoids it being a copyright violation?  What
if you never got around to watching it at all?  Is it just the
original intent that matters?
Good questions, and that's why I asked. I know I can't rely on
suggestions from this forum as a defense if the NFL decides to sue me,
but I'd like to try and do the right thing. Sounds like throwing them
out (erased or not) is about my only legal option?
Alexander Terekhov
2009-07-03 13:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Goodwin
Post by Barry Margolin
So if you make the tapes for a legal purpose (time-shifting), you
can then use them for an illegal purpose (distribution)? Watching
the tape once yourself avoids it being a copyright violation? What
if you never got around to watching it at all? Is it just the
original intent that matters?
Good questions, and that's why I asked. I know I can't rely on
suggestions from this forum as a defense if the NFL decides to sue me,
but I'd like to try and do the right thing. Sounds like throwing them
out (erased or not) is about my only legal option?
The copyright.gov suggested that

"The fair use copy could be transferred only in those cases where the
distribution itself qualified as a fair use."

I tend to agree.

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Rjack
2009-07-03 10:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Goodwin
I know its illegal to tape NFL games and sell those videotapes.
"§ 109. Limitations on exclusive rights: Effect of transfer of
particular copy or phonorecord42

(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106(3), the owner of a
particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any
person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of
the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of
that copy or phonorecord."

See the "... lawfully made under this title ..." part?
Post by Fred Goodwin
But I'd like to give away my collection at no charge (other than
the cost of shipping) -- is that also a copyright violation? Over
the last ten years or so, I've taped maybe 30-40 football games and
now I find I no longer have room for the tapes (and I don't have
the gear to convert them to DVD). Rather than simply throw the
tapes out (bad for the environment, right?). I'd like to give them
away to a fan who'd like to have them.
This isn't a veiled attempt to auction them off to the highest
bidder -- it would be first-come, first-served to anyone who can
cover the shipping costs.
Still a copyright violation? If so, then is my only alternative to
throw them out? If someone fished them out of the landfill, how
would that be any different than my giving them away?
See the "... lawfully made under this title ..." part?

Sincerely,
Rjack
Alexander Terekhov
2009-07-03 13:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rjack
Post by Fred Goodwin
I know its illegal to tape NFL games and sell those videotapes.
"§ 109. Limitations on exclusive rights: Effect of transfer of
particular copy or phonorecord42
(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106(3), the owner of a
particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any
person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of
the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of
that copy or phonorecord."
See the "... lawfully made under this title ..." part?
Post by Fred Goodwin
But I'd like to give away my collection at no charge (other than
the cost of shipping) -- is that also a copyright violation? Over
the last ten years or so, I've taped maybe 30-40 football games and
now I find I no longer have room for the tapes (and I don't have
the gear to convert them to DVD). Rather than simply throw the
tapes out (bad for the environment, right?). I'd like to give them
away to a fan who'd like to have them.
This isn't a veiled attempt to auction them off to the highest
bidder -- it would be first-come, first-served to anyone who can
cover the shipping costs.
Still a copyright violation? If so, then is my only alternative to
throw them out? If someone fished them out of the landfill, how
would that be any different than my giving them away?
See the "... lawfully made under this title ..." part?
Well, note that copyright.gov doesn't quite agree with such a plain
reading (see footnote 468 below):

http://www.copyright.gov/reports/studies/dmca/sec-104-report-vol-1.pdf

"Given our view that, in the typical situation,462 the making of backup
copies is probably a fair use, we see a risk to copyright owners under
current law that those backup copies could then be distributed without
legal consequence. We believe that outcome would be fundamentally
unfair463 and, notwithstanding the ambiguity of the 1976 House Report on
this point, contrary to congressional intent. Nonetheless, we cannot
overlook the possibility that a court would hold this way. When added
into the balance, this element tips the scale in favor of statutory
change.

We therefore recommend that Congress either (1) amend section 109(a) to
ensure that fair use copies are not subject to the first sale doctrine;
... It would, however, require that a separate fair use analysis be
applied to the distribution of that particular copy. The fair use copy
could be transferred only in those cases where the distribution itself
qualified as a fair use.468

468 In some cases, the making of a copy may be a fair use in large part
because the copy is not disseminated to third parties. For example, in
Sony, the Supreme Court held that it was a fair use for a private
citizen to record a television program off-the-air for purposes of
“time-shifting,” which the Court described as “the practice of recording
a program to view it once at a later time, and thereafter erasing it.”
464 U.S. at 423. The personal nature of that use was critical to the
Court’s analysis. See, e.g., 464 U.S. at 449 (“the District Court’s
findings plainly establish that time-shifting for private home use must
be characterized as a noncommercial, nonprofit activity”). The fact that
the making of a personal copy for purposes of time-shifting (and with
the anticipation of subsequent destruction of the copy) is fair use
should not make it lawful subsequently to sell, rent or give that
“lawfully made” copy to a third party."

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Fred Goodwin
2009-07-04 17:09:16 UTC
Permalink
The fact that the making of a personal copy for purposes of time-
shifting (and with the anticipation of subsequent destruction of
the copy) is fair use should not make it lawful subsequently to
sell, rent or give that “lawfully made” copy to a third party."
Thanx.

Sounds like my copies are destined for the land-fill rather than being
recycled to someone who might actually want them. I appreciate all
the thoughtful responses.

Happy 4th to those in the US!

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