Discussion:
Psystar's legal reply brief in response to Apple
(too old to reply)
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-03 12:10:42 UTC
Permalink
It's short and really nice.

http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/ApplevPsystarAppeal-21.pdf

"This reply brief addresses Apple’s response on
copyright misuse as well as those unanticipated
arguments that Apple made in response to the
sealing-order and scope-of-the-injunction issues.

COPYRIGHT MISUSE

Copyright gives authors the right to control
the copying, creation of derivative works from, and
distribution of their works. As Apple correctly
points out, copyright allows authors to refuse to
allow others to do some or all of these things — to
veto copying, the creation of derivative works, and
distribution of their creative output.

But copyright does not give copyright owners
the right to control how their works are used.
Copyright does not allow the author of a book to
require that it be read only at the beach or that
the information there contained be used only to
support Republican causes. Copyright governs
copying, not use.

This case is about Apple’s attempt to control,
through copyright, how purchasers of copies of OS X
use their copies of OS X. Apple is free to — and
does — do this by contract. The question is
whether Apple’s attempt to do this by copyright
too, and thereby gain access to the threat of
statutory damages, constitutes copyright misuse.

Copyright misuse is the use of copyright to
protect exclusive rights not granted by the
Copyright Act. See Altara Corp. v. Clear Logic,
Inc., 424 F.3d 1079, 1090 (9th Cir. 2005) (citing
Alcatel USA, Inc. v. DGI Technologies, Inc., 166
F.3d 772, 792 (5th Cir. 1999)); R. Br. at 27. The
exclusive right to control how a copyrighted work
is used is not a right granted by the copyright
act. Therefore, using copyright to control how
users use a copy of a copyrighted work is copyright
misuse.

The Fifth Circuit so held in Alcatel. For all
Apple’s attempts to distinguish that case, R. Br.
at 35–37 — the only case about use of a copyright
in an operating system to control the user’s choice
of hardware, and thus the only case squarely on
point — Apple must admit that the Fifth Circuit
held that it was misuse to use a copyright to
prevent a competitor from offering compatible,
cheaper hardware for use with a copyrighted
operating system. Alcatel, 166 F.3d at 792–93.

This Court should not create a circuit split
with the Fifth Circuit. No case requires it to do
so. Practice Management, cited in Psystar’s
opening brief, holds that it is misuse to license
diagnostic codes on condition that they be used
exclusively. See Practice Management Info. Corp.
v. American Medical Ass’n, 121 F.3d 516, 521 (9th
Cir. 1997). Apple says that this case is different
because Apple did not forbid the use of other
operating systems. R. Br. at 34-35.

In fact, this case is worse. Whereas in
Practice Management, the copyright owner’s
restriction related to the copyright work — use my
codes only — here, the restriction relates to a
wholly different subject — use my operating system
only in conjunction with my hardware. If the right
to make use of a copyrighted work exclusive is not
granted by the Copyright Act then, a fortiori, the
right to make use of an adjunct to the copyrighted
work — here, the physical computer hardware —
exclusive is not granted by the Copyright Act.

Apple says that its restriction fosters
competition and does not limit creativity. R. at
33–34. Not so. If Psystar is allowed to sell its
competing hardware for use with OS X, then
customers can choose between Apple’s integrated
product, OS X on a Macintosh, and Psystar’s
cheaper, unintegrated product, OS X on an Open
Computer. And further creativity and competition
can be expected as other companies, like Dell and
Lenovo, compete to offer the best hardware platform
for different users.

Apple also says that, as for patent misuse, a
requirement that a copyrighted product be used only
in conjunction with a different product should be
misuse only when the copyright owner has market
power in the market for the copyrighted product.
R. Br. at 28–31. But that was a change wrought by
statute for patent misuse, see 35 U.S.C. §
271(d)(5); if anything, the statute suggests that
the unamended law, which applies in the copyright
context, does not require a showing of market
power. And, as Apple admits, no court has yet
engrafted the market-power requirement onto the law
of copyright misuse.

In any event, Apple says, this Court decided
the issue in Triad. First, the discussion of
copyright misuse in Triad occupies a single
paragraph. See Triad Systems Corp. v. Southeastern
Express Co., 64 F.3d 1330, 1337 (9th Cir. 1995).
And Triad, like the other service-software cases
that Apple cites (Data General, MAI, In re
Independent Service Oragnizations Antitrust
Litig.), is distinguishable on the ground that the
software in Triad was never sold separately from
the hardware.

What Triad was doing was licensing its
operating and diagnostic software for, essentially,
its own use in maintaining its clients’ hardware.
What Triad did not do was sell copies of its
operating and diagnostic software, then require
that these copies be used only in connection with
Triad machines.

What distinguishes these two cases is that the
first involves a decision not to sell copies of
software. Apple sold copies of OS X; Triad did
not. The second involves an attempt to control
what purchasers of copies of software do with their
copies, in particular, what hardware they use the
software on. Apple tries to do this; Triad did
not.

What Triad did is not copyright misuse because
Triad merely exercised its copyright right not to
sell copies of its software. What Apple did is
copyright misuse because Apple sought to use
copyright to protect a right that is not a
copyright right: the putative right to control how
users use Apple’s copyrighted work after Apple has
sold them a copy. Declining to sell copies is a
copyright right. Controlling their subsequent use
is not.

* * *

Finally, it is worth taking a step back to look
at a strange feature of Apple’s position. Apple
admits that if it required OS X to be the only
operating system that a user used on his Macintosh,
then that would be copyright misuse. R. Br. at 34–
35. But Apple denies that, if, instead of
creating an exclusive operating system, it required
that its operating system be used exclusively on
Macintoshes, that would be copyright misuse.

It cannot be that misuse exists where a
copyright owner tries to use copyright to make his
copyrighted work exclusive, but not when he tries
to use copyright to make an adjunct, uncopyrighted
work exclusive. Both restrictions seek to protect
a right not granted by the Copyright Act. As the
Fifth Circuit recognized in Alcatel, both are
misuse.

SCOPE OF THE INJUNCTION

Apple contends that Psystar waived its
objections to the scope of the district court’s
injunction when it declined to take up the district
court’s invitation to file a postjudgment motion
seeking a declaration that Rebel EFI does not
violate the district court’s injunction. But the
whole point of Psystar’s argument is that Psystar
cannot be forced to litigate that issue in the
district court when the first-filed case
encompassing Rebel EFI is the case pending in the
Southern District of Florida. Apple’s discussion
of the injunction issue misses this point entirely.
R. Br. at 43–54.

Psystar stated its objection to an injunction
that encompassed matters being litigated in the
Florida case in its response to Apple’s motion for
a permanent injunction. E.O.R. at 105. The
district court evidently disagreed with this
response when it granted Apple’s motion for a
permanent injunction. Again, nothing more was
required to preserve error. See Floyd v. Laws, 929
F.2d 1390, 1400 (9th Cir. 1991) (“any question
which has been presented to a federal district
court for a ruling and which has not thereafter
been waived or withdrawn is preserved for review”).

SEALING ORDERS

Apple contends that Psystar waived its
objections to the district court’s sealing order.
R. Br. at 20, 59. This is incorrect. Psystar
filed a response to Apple’s motion to seal in which
it argued that the “trade secrets” that Apple
sought to protect had already appeared in
publications that Apple’s own witnesses described
as authoritative. E.O.R. at 552; O. Br. at 42.
The district court evidently disagreed with this
response when it signed Apple’s proposed order.
Nothing more was required to preserve error.
Floyd, 929 F.2d at 1400.

Respectfully submitted,
/s/ K.A.D. Camara"

Now, the GPL girl Pee Jay elaborates:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php

(in comments)

-----
They are suing for copyright violation over an act that they
should only be able to recover from as a contract violation.
Ah! Now you're getting warm. I want you to think about the GPL. If there
is a violation, how is it enforced?

Is it not by copyright law? And didn't all the antiGPL trolls like
Terekhov and Dan Wallace argue for years on every message board that
didn't ban them that the enforcement of the GPL should be under contract
law instead of copyright law?

Wasn't that the issue in the toy train case too?

See the pattern a little bit now?

Here's why they want enforcement to be under contract law instead. They
could then sue, state by state, for one thing, until they got one that
said the GPL wasn't fair. They thought, wrongly, that this would result
in GPL'd works being put into the public domain. They wanted that to
happen, and Terekhov even described how he believed he was allowed under
the GPL to do EXACTLY what Psystar then did.

Coincidence? I don't think so.

Another reason to have EULAs and the GPL and any FOSS license made a
contract issue instead of copyright law: there's no muscle to it. With
copyright law, you can ask for and get an injunction and damages,
statutory damages, meaning you don't have to prove actual monetary harm.

Those are two things that Apple just lost by means of the new exemptions
to the DMCA, by the way, and you notice everyone is saying they lost
their ability to sue, even though technically they can still sue under
contract law. The same would happen to Linux if the GPL was deemed a
contract issue, not copyright law any more.

And further, if you sue under contract law in New York, even if you win,
it applies to that contract, that state. If someone then does the exact
bad thing to you in California, you have to go there and sue again in
California, and then New Jersey and then Kansas.

Can you see how that would destroy FOSS licenses as any kind of
protection? Microsoft can afford to do that, but who in FOSS can pay for
all that? That was what Microsoft did to Lindows, suing them in country
after country until they sold out and gave up, even though they had, in
my view, a winning case on the trademark issue.

What? You never thought of that? Well, somebody on the Dark Side has. So
you need to think about it too."

ROFL!!!

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-03 13:07:29 UTC
Permalink
This is hilarious.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php
(in comments)
-----
What's the Latest in the Psystar Appeal?

Authored by: hymie on Wednesday, July 28 2010 @ 12:53 PM EDT

Sigh. I'm now annoyed with myself for once having contributed money
to help support Groklaw. The notion of supporting restrictions on
what one may do with legally purchased copies of software, EULAs
notwithstanding, is about as far from the idea of software freedom
as I can imagine. Making money is irrelevant. As had been endlessly
explained, the GPL allows you to make money too. And first sale
means that if you buy software, including GPLed software, you can
resell it without being bound by its license. First sale is far too
valuable a freedom to sacrifice, and that's what's being advocated
here.
-----

The GPL's girl reply:

-----
What's the Latest in the Psystar Appeal?

Authored by: PJ on Wednesday, July 28 2010 @ 02:34 PM EDT

Email me and I'll return every dime.

This isn't advocacy, by the way. I'm explaining
why I think this case, if Psystar wins, will be
used to destroy the GPL and all FOSS licenses.

Just so you know.
-----

Sez Pee The-Ends-Justify-The-Means Jay.

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-03 13:39:49 UTC
Permalink
This is telling...
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php
(in comments)
-----
Defending Apple

Authored by: Glenn on Wednesday, July 28 2010 @ 03:39 PM EDT

PJ,

I am ambivalent concerning this case. It seems that you are defending
restrictive shrink wrap EULA's and Apple's anti-competitive ways of
trying to ensure that their operating system only runs on Apple
hardware.

It is true that Psystar's motives are pecuniary in nature. That is a
given for any commercial endeavor. Apple's motives are profit driven
also. They want everyone to pay for the software and for hardware
that is more expensive than necessary due to a forced scarcity.

Of course Psystar is trying to build a business model based upon a
lot of legwork by another company. But that company's operating system
is built on the backbone of work by many other people, which Apple
obtained at what cost to them?

If I understand it correctly, Psystar is attempting to install MAC
OSX on generic computers, and in doing so has to modify some of
Apple's files which look for an Apple hardware signature when
booting. They are utilizing legally purchased copies of OSX and the
modifications are for interoperability purposes.

I though that such modifications for interoperability are part of the
Fair Use Doctrine.

I don't know how different this is from a case a few years ago where
Lexmark was selling laser printers that had a startup routine that
checked for Genuine Lexmark Toner Cartridges and would not operate if
it did not find it's taletale signature in the cartridges. A company
found a way to fool the Lexmark printers and produced chips they sold
to toner cartridge remanufacturers so their cartridges could be used
in Lexmark Laser printers.

There are some differences to be sure. This is a hardware to hardware
restriction and there was copying of copyrighted code but no changes,
as I recall.

Lexmark initially won, but lost on appeal.

I do not think that this case compares very well to the SCOG at all.

I would be open to any enlightenment you or anyone else may care to
shine my way.

There are legal and ethical issues here, and maybe I have not done
my homework well enough.

But I do wonder just how much money Apple could make by selling maybe
several million extra copies of OSX? I do not know if their hardware
sales would suffer that much because I think that the people who
could afford a MAC would still buy the real deal and not a clone.

Glenn
-----

Pee The-Ends-Justify-The-Means Jay did NOT reply...

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-03 14:18:16 UTC
Permalink
LMAO!
Post by Alexander Terekhov
This is telling...
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php
(in comments)
-----
Defending Apple

Authored by: schestowitz on Wednesday, July 28 2010 @ 12:27 PM EDT

What would you say about Apple's handling of GPL-licensed software
in the iSomething store? Did you see what Harald and the FSF said?

---
Roy S. Schestowitz, Ph.D. Medical Biophysics
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
-----

Reply:

-----
Defending Apple
Post by Alexander Terekhov
What would you say about Apple's handling of GPL-licensed software
in the iSomething store? Did you see what Harald and the FSF said?
I saw it, and the FSF made a right mess of it. There was software in the
app store that was licensed under the GPL, you could download it, get
the source code, everyone was happy except the FSF. They threatened with
court action, and I can very much understand that Apple doesn't feel any
obligation to fight for users' rights to use GPL'd software against the
FSF, and pulled the application from its store. It's exactly why many
people are against the DMCA; someone makes a claim of copyright
infringement and something is pulled. FSF made the claim of copyright
infringement, Apple pulled the software.
-----

Ph.D. Medical Biophysics did NOT respond...

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
RJack
2010-08-03 14:07:00 UTC
Permalink
[Snip] Can you see how that would destroy FOSS licenses as any kind
of protection? Microsoft can afford to do that, but who in FOSS can
pay for all that? That was what Microsoft did to Lindows, suing them
in country after country until they sold out and gave up, even
though they had, in my view, a winning case on the trademark issue.
What? You never thought of that? Well, somebody on the Dark Side has.
So you need to think about it too."
So...

The Copyright Act of 1976 states very specifically that copyright
infringement occurs when an "exclusive right is violated":

"§ 501 · Infringement of copyright
(a) Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright
owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 or of the author as
provided in section 106A(a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into
the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the
copyright or right of the author, as the case may be. For purposes of
this chapter (other than section 506), any reference to copyright shall
be deemed to include the rights conferred by section 106A(a). As used in
this subsection, the term “anyone” includes any State, any
instrumentality of a State, and any officer or employee of a State or
instrumentality of a State acting in his or her official capacity. Any
State, and any such instrumentality, officer, or employee, shall be
subject to the provisions of this title in the same manner and to the
same extent as any nongovernmental entity."

The Supreme Court has explained what this means:

"An unlicensed use of the copyright is not an infringement unless it
conflicts with one of the specific exclusive rights conferred by the
copyright statute. Twentieth Century Music Corp. v. Aiken, 422 U.S., at
154-155."; SONY CORP. OF AMER. v. UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., 464 U.S.
417 (1984).

The purported goal of the GPL is stated in the GPL itself:

"These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. . . Thus, it
is not the intent of this section to claim rights or contest your rights
to work written entirely by you; rather, the intent is to exercise the
right to control the distribution of derivative or collective works
based on the Program."

An exclusive right to distribute a derivative work "as a whole" is
nowhere mentioned in the Copyright Act. I will gladly contribute $10,000
to the favorite charity of any person who can show me where the
Copyright Act grants this purported exclusive right.

This lack of an exclusive right to distribute a derivative work "as a
whole" was explained to PJ and her ilk by Daniel Wallace when Maureen
O'Gara published these facts in Feb. 2004 in Linux Business News.

Six years later, she is still spreading the big lie in the hope that if
you repeat a lie often enough it will magically become the truth. I
suspect PJ is becoming very nervous because several defendants in the
Best Buy et. al. suit have called the SFLC's bluff. A federal court
actually reviewing the GPL on the merits means the death of the GPL.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-03 14:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
An exclusive right to distribute a derivative work "as a whole"
is nowhere mentioned in the Copyright Act.
The copyright act grants the holder of a copyright the
exclusive right to permit how a work may be copied. This
includes being copied as part of a larger work. The GPL
permits a work to be copied as part of a larger work only
if that work as a whole is distributed under the GPL.
Post by RJack
This lack of an exclusive right to distribute a derivative work "as a
whole" was explained to PJ and her ilk by Daniel Wallace when Maureen
O'Gara published these facts in Feb. 2004 in Linux Business News.
Daniel Wallace has has a notable lack of success "explaining"
his theories to a court.
Post by RJack
A federal court actually reviewing the GPL on the merits means the death
of the GPL.
The GPL is a simple and straightforward license and it will easily
pass muster with a court, as in fact it already glancingly has. The
only people who purport to see difficulty with the GPL are those who
do not wish to abide by its requirements or who don't wish to abide
by copyright law.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-03 16:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Hyman Rosen wrote:
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
Daniel Wallace has has a notable lack of success "explaining"
Take that, Hyman.

http://www.softpanorama.org/Copyright/License_classification/social_roots_of_GPL.shtml

"In another relevant paper about the concept of fair use Professor Bell
stated that generally nobody can claim an infringement unless there is a
market that was harmed [Bell1998]

In American Geophysical, eighty-three publishers of scientific and
technical journals joined in a class action copyright infringement suit
against Texaco, alleging that the defendant had made unauthorized
photocopies of individual articles from their [p. 567/p. 568]
publications.[45] Among other defenses, Texaco cited fair use.[46] It
lost in the district court,[47] appealed to the Second Circuit, and lost
yet again.[48]

The outcome of the case turned on the crucial fourth factor of the fair
use defense,[49] which requires a court to consider "the effect of the
use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."[50]
Citing the district court's findings of fact, the court of appeals held
that the publishers had, with the help of the Copyright Clearance
Center, created "a workable market for institutional users to obtain
licenses for the right to produce their own copies of individual
articles via photocopying."[51] This made it difficult for Texaco to
claim that its unauthorized copying had no impact on revenue the
plaintiffs might have earned from their copyrights. As the court of
appeals explained, "the right to seek payment for a particular use tends
to become legally cognizable under the fourth fair use factor when the
means for paying for such a use is made easier."[52]

Because he disputed whether the plaintiffs had created a workable market
for licensing copies of individual articles, Judge Jacobs dissented.
Absent such a market, he opined, the majority's reasoning ran in
circles: "[T]he market will not crystallize unless courts reject the
fair use argument that Texaco presents; but, under [p. 568/p. 569] the
statutory test, we cannot declare a use to be an infringement unless
(assuming other factors also weigh in favor of the secondary user) there
is a market to be harmed."[53]

The proposed test of "the effect of the use upon the potential market
for or value of the copyrighted work." might be applicable to the case
of any GPL infringement: if the license explicitly denies the
possibility of the creation of a market by allowing free replication and
further redistribution of a product at zero cost, it is impossible to
harm it.

Paradoxically the same test opens GPL to lawsuits like Daniel Wallace
price fixing lawsuit. He accused FSF of dumping and claims that FSF
engages in price fixing by getting multiple vendors to agree to give
their products away for free. This is anti-competitive, because it
prevents other vendors who don't want to give their products away for
free from entering the market. [EOSM2005]

In it he says the GPL is "slowly destroying the market for independent
software applications" and that the FSF is out "to destroy the
intellectual property value in computer software," drawing the agency's
attention to such FSF-produced collateral as the provocatively titled
"dotCommunist Manifesto."

Wallace told the regulator that the obvious target of the open source
business model is Microsoft and Windows.

"Unfortunately," he says, "it is not Microsoft who suffers. The result
of this predatory pricing at 'no charge' for intellectual property under
the GPL license is causing the foreclosure of any remaining intellectual
property market for the individual software developer and small business
entrepreneur dealing in POSIX operating systems and various applications
for the desktop and enterprise markets. The license is a per se
violation of the antitrust laws."

Taking his argument a step further, he says, "Removing the profit
incentive in intellectual software property creation is even suppressing
the enrollment of new students training for careers in the computer
sciences here in the United States." "

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-03 20:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
Daniel Wallace has has a notable lack of success "explaining"
Take that, Hyman.
http://www.softpanorama.org/Copyright/License_classification/social_roots_of_GPL.shtml
The court laughed him out. And in fact, if there was not a
market for GPLed work with substantial perceived cost, you
cranks wouldn't be so upset by your inability to steal it.
David Kastrup
2010-08-03 20:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
Daniel Wallace has has a notable lack of success "explaining"
Take that, Hyman.
http://www.softpanorama.org/Copyright/License_classification/social_roots_of_GPL.shtml
The court laughed him out. And in fact, if there was not a
market for GPLed work with substantial perceived cost, you
cranks wouldn't be so upset by your inability to steal it.
I don't think Alexander and his crankanions are per se interested in
Free Software rather than trying to boost their ego by downtalking other
people's work and values. Here is one of the few places where people
actually still bother responding to them.
--
David Kastrup
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-04 15:44:13 UTC
Permalink
David Kastrup wrote:
[...]
Post by David Kastrup
Free Software rather than trying to boost their ego by downtalking other
people's work and values. Here is one of the few places where people
actually still bother responding to them.
Hey dak, PJ of Groklaw recently introduced the new term called "Terekhov
style".

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100803132055210

(in comments)

"... So you need to stop. I mean it. You are displaying what I'd
describe as a certain Terekhov style, and that is not appropriate on
Groklaw. So change your commenting style or get out. "

Am I not getting more famous than you, dak?

:-)

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-04 15:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Am I not getting more famous
The word is "notorious".
David Kastrup
2010-08-04 15:57:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Am I not getting more famous
The word is "notorious".
I would have picked "infamous". Apparently a source of pride. Seems
like some have to take what they get.
--
David Kastrup
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-04 16:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Am I not getting more famous
The word is "notorious".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notorious_(1946_film)

"Notorious is an American 1946 thriller film directed and produced by
Alfred Hitchcock, and starring Cary Grant, Ingrid Bergman and Claude
Rains as three people whose lives become intimately entangled during an
espionage operation."

Are you okay, Hyman?

Dak, would you please just piss off?

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
RJack
2010-08-04 20:33:54 UTC
Permalink
David Kastrup wrote: [...]
Post by David Kastrup
Free Software rather than trying to boost their ego by downtalking
other people's work and values. Here is one of the few places
where people actually still bother responding to them.
Hey dak, PJ of Groklaw recently introduced the new term called
"Terekhov style".
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100803132055210
(in comments)
"... So you need to stop. I mean it. You are displaying what I'd
describe as a certain Terekhov style, and that is not appropriate on
Groklaw. So change your commenting style or get out. "
Am I not getting more famous than you, dak?
I am extremely envious of Alex. What an honor to be known over at
GrokSpin for "Terekhov style" commenting. It's kinda' like being awarded
The Congressional Medal of Honor. You *know* that if PJ
is pissed at him he is tellin' the truth the whole truth and nothing but
the truth. When PJ sees the truth she instinctively reaches for
the big red CENSOR button.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-04 07:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
Daniel Wallace has has a notable lack of success "explaining"
Take that, Hyman.
http://www.softpanorama.org/Copyright/License_classification/social_roots_of_GPL.shtml
The court laughed him out. And in fact, if there was not a
market for GPLed work with substantial perceived cost, you
cranks wouldn't be so upset by your inability to steal it.
http://opensource.actiontec.com/mi1424wr/actiontec_opensrc_mi424wr-rev-e_fw-20-9-0.tgz

And BTW, how is the progress regarding

http://insigniaproducts.com/products/dvd-players-recorders/NS-WBRDVD.html

oh dear Hyman?

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-04 15:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://opensource.actiontec.com/mi1424wr/actiontec_opensrc_mi424wr-rev-e_fw-20-9-0.tgz
This URL is out of date. The active ones are found on
<http://opensource.actiontec.com/>.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
And BTW, how is the progress regarding
http://insigniaproducts.com/products/dvd-players-recorders/NS-WBRDVD.html
My query has been moved to the "Pending Investigation" section
of the Insignia community support website:
<http://community.insigniaproducts.com/t5/Pending-Ivestigation/bd-p/pending_investigation>.
RJack
2010-08-03 20:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
An exclusive right to distribute a derivative work "as a whole" is
nowhere mentioned in the Copyright Act.
The copyright act grants the holder of a copyright the exclusive
right to permit how a work may be copied. This includes being copied
as part of a larger work.
The exclusive right to copy and distribute is a *necessary* but not a
*sufficient* condition to control distribution of a derivative work of
two authors. The fact that you don't understand this difference is
glaringly obvious.
The GPL permits a work to be copied as part of a larger work only if
that work as a whole is distributed under the GPL.
Which, of course, is the result of a *contractual* agreement between a
preexisting author and a modifying author who are in contractual privity.

As I said, an exclusive right to distribute a derivative work "as a
whole" does not exist in the Copyright Act.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-03 20:32:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
The exclusive right to copy and distribute is a *necessary* but not a
*sufficient* condition to control distribution of a derivative work of
two authors. The fact that you don't understand this difference is
glaringly obvious.
The "work as a whole" to which the GPL refers is not (necessarily) a
derivative work (which is an alteration of an existing work representing
a significant act of authorship). It is usually just a combined work,
consisting of linked-together GPLed code and other code. The exclusive
rights granted to copyright holders by law permits them to exercise
extremely fine-grained control over the copying of their works, and that
includes whether they grant permission for copying when the work is part
of a combined work. Such permission must be obtained separately for each
such combined work.
Post by RJack
The GPL permits a work to be copied as part of a larger work only if
that work as a whole is distributed under the GPL.
Which, of course, is the result of a *contractual* agreement between a
preexisting author and a modifying author who are in contractual privity.
It's the result of a license granted by the copyright holder.
Post by RJack
As I said, an exclusive right to distribute a derivative work "as a
whole" does not exist in the Copyright Act.
Neither does a right to copy and distribute a work "in hardcover form".
The Copyright Act grants holders the exclusive rights to all forms of
copying and distribution. The holders may then hand out fine-grained
permissions as they see fit.
7
2010-08-03 20:48:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
It's short
Who's appil and which version of Linux do
they distribute?

http://www.livecdlist.com
http://www.distrowatch.com
ZnU
2010-08-04 18:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
It's short and really nice.
http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/ApplevPsystarAppeal-21.pdf
"This reply brief addresses Apple’s response on
copyright misuse as well as those unanticipated
arguments that Apple made in response to the
sealing-order and scope-of-the-injunction issues.
COPYRIGHT MISUSE
Copyright gives authors the right to control
the copying, creation of derivative works from, and
distribution of their works. As Apple correctly
points out, copyright allows authors to refuse to
allow others to do some or all of these things — to
veto copying, the creation of derivative works, and
distribution of their creative output.
[snip]

I actually agree with Psystar's interpretation of copyright law.
Software vendors have created this legal fiction that software is
licensed, not sold, and therefore they have the right to apply all sorts
of post-sale restrictions, something that everyone would consider absurd
in other markets. The case law on this issue is all over the map. How
the courts will ultimately decide is not at all clear.

The catch for Psystar is that even if they get a ruling in their favor,
Apple can just change the way OS X is distributed in order to neatly
sidestep that and still prevent the sale of unauthorized Mac clones.
Only making non-upgrade copies of OS X available with new Macs, not at
retail, would accomplish this quite effectively for instance.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
They are suing for copyright violation over an act that they
should only be able to recover from as a contract violation.
Ah! Now you're getting warm. I want you to think about the GPL. If there
is a violation, how is it enforced?
Is it not by copyright law? And didn't all the antiGPL trolls like
Terekhov and Dan Wallace argue for years on every message board that
didn't ban them that the enforcement of the GPL should be under contract
law instead of copyright law?
Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the same considerations at
work in the Apple/Psystar case don't quite apply to the GPL. The GPL
only discusses the terms under which you may _distribute_ software, not
the terms under which you may _use_ it. Since distribution actually _is_
an exclusive right under copyright law, one must agree to the GPL to
have any right to distribute the software at all. This is in contrast to
Apple's EULA, which seeks to limit activities in which Apple does _not_
have an exclusive right.

[snip]
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-04 19:02:21 UTC
Permalink
ZnU wrote:
[...]
Post by ZnU
I actually agree with Psystar's interpretation of copyright law.
Software vendors have created this legal fiction that software is
licensed, not sold, and therefore they have the right to apply all sorts
of post-sale restrictions, something that everyone would consider absurd
in other markets.
+1
Post by ZnU
The case law on this issue is all over the map. How
the courts will ultimately decide is not at all clear.
The catch for Psystar is that even if they get a ruling in their favor,
Apple can just change the way OS X is distributed in order to neatly
sidestep that and still prevent the sale of unauthorized Mac clones.
Another catch is potential use of patents by Apple to block any clones
of Mac.

This is how IBM (legally) uses patents to block any clones of Mainframe,
including software emulators ala Hercules.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/eu-launches-antitrust-probe-into-ibm/
Post by ZnU
Only making non-upgrade copies of OS X available with new Macs, not at
retail, would accomplish this quite effectively for instance.
+1

Just like the Xbox OS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox#Operating_system
Post by ZnU
Post by Alexander Terekhov
They are suing for copyright violation over an act that they
should only be able to recover from as a contract violation.
Ah! Now you're getting warm. I want you to think about the GPL. If there
is a violation, how is it enforced?
Is it not by copyright law? And didn't all the antiGPL trolls like
Terekhov and Dan Wallace argue for years on every message board that
didn't ban them that the enforcement of the GPL should be under contract
law instead of copyright law?
Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the same considerations at
work in the Apple/Psystar case don't quite apply to the GPL. The GPL
only discusses the terms under which you may _distribute_ software, not
the terms under which you may _use_ it. Since distribution actually _is_
an exclusive right under copyright law, one must agree to the GPL to
have any right to distribute the software at all.
Once a copy is made under the GPL, it falls under "first sale" on the
only cause of action is the contract breach, not copyright infringement.

Note that in contrast to the GPL, neither Apple, nor IBM, nor Microsoft
grant the right to make copies of their operating systems beyond the
rights granted by the copyright law exceptions (such as 17 USC 117).

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-04 19:44:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Once a copy is made under the GPL, it falls under "first sale" on the
only cause of action is the contract breach, not copyright infringement.
That's false, of course. The GPL distinguishes between copies
made for own use and copies made for distribution, and permission
for one does not give permission for the other.

The situation is similar to recording broadcast programs
for time shifting. It is legal to record a show and watch
it later. It is not legal to set up a battery of recorders
to record a show and then sell those copies. The law does
not have difficulty distinguishing identical objects based
on their differing histories.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-04 20:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Hyman Rosen wrote:
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
That's false, of course. The GPL distinguishes between copies
Hyman, would you please just piss off?

Go spend your energy on trying to find the source code for
http://insigniaproducts.com/products/dvd-players-recorders/NS-WBRDVD.html
that you reportedly so much need for so long...



regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-04 20:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Hyman, would you please just piss off?
No, I won't. Not as long as someone is wrong on the internet.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Go spend your energy on trying to find the source code for
http://insigniaproducts.com/products/dvd-players-recorders/NS-WBRDVD.html
that you reportedly so much need for so long...
Fortunately, I have the SFLC fighting this fight for me.
The suit against BestBuy and Insignia is still ongoing.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-04 20:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Hyman Rosen wrote:
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
Fortunately, I have the SFLC fighting this fight for me.
The suit against BestBuy and Insignia is still ongoing.
Best Buy's countersuit is ongoing as well you silly.

And, BTW, *Insignia* has legally nothing to do with Best Buy defendant
in the ongoing Busybox lawsuit.

"Best Buy Co., Inc. ("Best Buy"), erroneously sued in place of Best Buy
Stores, L.P. and BestBuy.Com, LLC, answers Software Freedom Conservancy,
Inc. and Erik Andersen?s ("Plaintiffs") Original Complaint ("Complaint")
as follows: ... COUNTERCLAIMS"

Stop being utter moron Hyman.

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
ZnU
2010-08-05 04:48:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by ZnU
I actually agree with Psystar's interpretation of copyright law.
Software vendors have created this legal fiction that software is
licensed, not sold, and therefore they have the right to apply all sorts
of post-sale restrictions, something that everyone would consider absurd
in other markets.
+1
Post by ZnU
The case law on this issue is all over the map. How
the courts will ultimately decide is not at all clear.
The catch for Psystar is that even if they get a ruling in their favor,
Apple can just change the way OS X is distributed in order to neatly
sidestep that and still prevent the sale of unauthorized Mac clones.
Another catch is potential use of patents by Apple to block any clones
of Mac.
This is how IBM (legally) uses patents to block any clones of Mainframe,
including software emulators ala Hercules.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/eu-launches-antitrust-probe-into-ibm/
Post by ZnU
Only making non-upgrade copies of OS X available with new Macs, not at
retail, would accomplish this quite effectively for instance.
+1
Just like the Xbox OS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox#Operating_system
Right. At that point, the OS becomes legally indistinguishable from,
say, the firmware on a particular brand of digital camera, which I don't
think anyone would argue other digital camera vendors had a right to
install on their cameras.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Post by ZnU
Post by Alexander Terekhov
They are suing for copyright violation over an act that they
should only be able to recover from as a contract violation.
Ah! Now you're getting warm. I want you to think about the GPL. If there
is a violation, how is it enforced?
Is it not by copyright law? And didn't all the antiGPL trolls like
Terekhov and Dan Wallace argue for years on every message board that
didn't ban them that the enforcement of the GPL should be under contract
law instead of copyright law?
Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the same considerations at
work in the Apple/Psystar case don't quite apply to the GPL. The GPL
only discusses the terms under which you may _distribute_ software, not
the terms under which you may _use_ it. Since distribution actually _is_
an exclusive right under copyright law, one must agree to the GPL to
have any right to distribute the software at all.
Once a copy is made under the GPL, it falls under "first sale" on the
only cause of action is the contract breach, not copyright infringement.
I'm not sure I'm exactly grasping your point. Yes, the GPL, once
accepted, is a contract. But it's a contract backed up by the force of
copyright law, because if you don't accept the contract you have no
right to distribute additional copies of the software.

(Mind you, there is some overreach in GPL3, in that it claims you need
to accept the license merely to _modify_ a work, even without further
redistribution. IMO this is invalid, as you'd have that right under
first sale doctrine even without accepting the license. But this is not
really the issue everyone is interested in with respect to GPL validity.)
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Note that in contrast to the GPL, neither Apple, nor IBM, nor Microsoft
grant the right to make copies of their operating systems beyond the
rights granted by the copyright law exceptions (such as 17 USC 117).
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-05 10:16:14 UTC
Permalink
ZnU wrote:
[...]
Post by ZnU
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Once a copy is made under the GPL, it falls under "first sale" on the
only cause of action is the contract breach, not copyright infringement.
I'm not sure I'm exactly grasping your point. Yes, the GPL, once
accepted, is a contract. But it's a contract backed up by the force of
copyright law, because if you don't accept the contract you have no
right to distribute additional copies of the software.
You have no right to make a copy in the first place so you have to
accept the license contract in order to make a copy.

But after a copy has been made under the license contract, that copy
falls under 17 USC 109 (which limits exclusive distribution right of the
copyright owner) and the only cause of action regarding non-compliance
with the distribution requirements is a contract breach claim, not
copyright infringement claim.

The situation is exactly the same as with legally downloaded copies:

http://www.copyright.gov/reports/studies/dmca/sec-104-report-vol-1.pdf

"There is no dispute that section 109 applies to works in digital
form. Physical copies of works in a digital format, such as CDs or
DVDs, are subject to section 109 in the same way as physical copies
in analog form. Similarly, a lawfully made tangible copy of a
digitally downloaded work, such as a work downloaded to a floppy
disk, Zip disk, or CD-RW, is clearly subject to section 109."

A copy can be "lawfully made" if it is made by the copyright
owner, made with the authorization of the copyright owner (e.g.
the GPL) or made under one of the exceptions to the copyright
owner's exclusive rights (such as compulsory licensing provisions
of the copyright act).

Now going back to the breach of the license contract after a copy has
been made and it's distribution time...

The contract laws recognize a concept called "efficient breach" which
*encourages* breach of (enforcable) obligations if it's economically
efficient to do so. Compliance with license/contract obligations is
almost always voluntary -- if you choose not to comply, then you don't
have to. You merely have to compensate the non-breaching party for his
expectancy interest. Hint: damages.

See also:

http://www.jus.unitn.it/cardozo/review/Contract/Alpa-1995/alpa2.html
(Law and economics and voluntary breach)

"Posner notes that: "When a breach of contract is established, the issue
becomes one the proper remedy. A starting point for analysis is Holmes's
view that is not the policy of the law to compel adherence to contracts
but only to require each party to choose between performing in
accordance with the contract and compensating the other party for any
injury resulting from a failure to perform. This view contains an
important economic insight." (Economic Analysis of Law, Boston-Toronto,
1977, p. 88)."

And what are the economic damages in thwe case of publicly available
FREE software?

<chuckles>

Also relevant:

http://www.goodwinprocter.com/~/media/Files/Publications/Newsletters/IP%20Alert/2009/Jacobsen_v_Katzer_Court_Again_Denies_Preliminary_Injunction_for_Breach_of_Open_Source_License.ashx

(Jacobsen v. Katzer: District Court Again Denies Preliminary Injunction
for
Breach of Open Source License)

"... plaintiffs seeking to enforce an open source license would be well
advised to introduce evidence of economic harm suffered or the threat of
imminent economic harm if they seek injunctive relief."

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
David Kastrup
2010-08-05 10:48:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by ZnU
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Once a copy is made under the GPL, it falls under "first sale" on the
only cause of action is the contract breach, not copyright infringement.
I'm not sure I'm exactly grasping your point. Yes, the GPL, once
accepted, is a contract. But it's a contract backed up by the force of
copyright law, because if you don't accept the contract you have no
right to distribute additional copies of the software.
You have no right to make a copy in the first place so you have to
accept the license contract in order to make a copy.
But after a copy has been made under the license contract, that copy
falls under 17 USC 109 (which limits exclusive distribution right of the
copyright owner) and the only cause of action regarding non-compliance
with the distribution requirements is a contract breach claim, not
copyright infringement claim.
A copy made without an intent or attempt of heeding the conditions of
the copying permission does not count as "legally downloaded" with
respect to fair use.

Courts are not stupid. There is no law against pulling a trigger, but
there is a law against killing people. And you can't plead "sure, I
pulled the trigger, but I am not responsible for the inertial law that
carried the bullet to its target". When two acts form one unit of
intent and action, the courts are intelligent enough to join them.
--
David Kastrup
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-05 12:04:03 UTC
Permalink
David Kastrup wrote:
[...]
Post by David Kastrup
A copy made without an intent or attempt of heeding the conditions of
the copying permission does not count as "legally downloaded" with
respect to fair use.
It has nothing to do with fair use, silly dak.

Not heeding your GNUtian "conditions" (illegal and hence void part of
contractually imposed obligations aside for a moment) is a contract
breach, not copyright infringement.

The copyright act has nothing to do with your idiotic "conditions".

The idea that the "copyleft hack" of copyright act is enforceable by the
copyright act itself is utterly moronic.

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
David Kastrup
2010-08-05 12:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by David Kastrup
A copy made without an intent or attempt of heeding the conditions of
the copying permission does not count as "legally downloaded" with
respect to fair use.
It has nothing to do with fair use, silly dak.
Not heeding your GNUtian "conditions" (illegal and hence void part of
contractually imposed obligations aside for a moment) is a contract
breach, not copyright infringement.
A "contract" does not come into being without a recognizable act of
entering into contractual obligations. In this particular case, we are
not talking about a contract but rather a license bound to conditions.

The whole folderol is rather academic since so far, no defendant (let
alone any court) has been foolish enough to entertain your particular
fanciful theories.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
The idea that the "copyleft hack" of copyright act is enforceable by
the copyright act itself is utterly moronic.
The courts so far disagree, and your dissenting opinion, however high
you happen to value it, is utterly irrelevant. Your legal predictions
so far have had an ultimate failure rate of 100%.

There is a joke about a certain old shephard having over 60% success in
predicting the weather, to the chagrin of a really learned meteorologist
with about half the success rate. So one day he swallows his pride and
visits the shepherd, asking him just how he does it. "Well, I wait for
your prediction and then say the opposite."

That technique would seem to guarantee a fabulous hit rate when applied
to your legal predictions.
--
David Kastrup
RJack
2010-08-05 16:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
David Kastrup wrote: [...]
Post by David Kastrup
A copy made without an intent or attempt of heeding the
conditions of the copying permission does not count as "legally
downloaded" with respect to fair use.
It has nothing to do with fair use, silly dak.
Not heeding your GNUtian "conditions" (illegal and hence void part
of contractually imposed obligations aside for a moment) is a
contract breach, not copyright infringement.
A "contract" does not come into being without a recognizable act of
entering into contractual obligations. In this particular case, we
are not talking about a contract but rather a license bound to
conditions.
The whole folderol is rather academic since so far, no defendant
(let alone any court) has been foolish enough to entertain your
particular fanciful theories.
The idea that the "copyleft hack" of copyright act is enforceable
by the copyright act itself is utterly moronic.
The courts so far disagree, and your dissenting opinion, however
high you happen to value it, is utterly irrelevant. Your legal
predictions so far have had an ultimate failure rate of 100%.
There is a joke about a certain old shephard having over 60% success
in predicting the weather, to the chagrin of a really learned
meteorologist with about half the success rate. So one day he
swallows his pride and visits the shepherd, asking him just how he
does it. "Well, I wait for your prediction and then say the
opposite."
That technique would seem to guarantee a fabulous hit rate when
applied to your legal predictions.
DAK, you are great at ad hominem attacks and emotional rhetoric but the
fact remains that in the past eighty years since the Supreme Court
decided De Forest Radio Tel. & Tel. Co. v. United States, 273 U.S. 236,
United States Supreme Court (1927), no federal circuit or district court
has ever held a copyright license to be anything other than a contract
interpreted under state law. There have been thousands of copyright
cases filed since 1927. It has been over ten years since Richard
Stallman and Eben Moglen began claiming that a license is not a
contract. In over ten years, GPL supporters like Groklaw's PJ who are
paralegals trained to do perform legal research, have never been able to
cite a single case where any federal court has ever held a copyright
license to be anything other than a contract. The same goes for law
professors like Eben Moglen and attorneys like Dan Ravicher. If some GPL
supporter somewhere in this World were to cite to a single U.S. federal
case demonstrating that a license was not legally treated as a contract,
then your criticisms concerning Alexander Terekhov and Daniel Wallace
would hold at least a modicum of respectability.

Sincerely,
RJack :)

--- Whether this [act] constitutes a gratuitous license, or one for a
reasonable compensation, must, of course, depend upon the circumstances;
but the relation between the parties thereafter in respect of any suit
brought must be held to be contractual, and not an unlawful invasion of
the rights of the owner."; De Forest Radio Tel. & Tel. Co. v. United
States, 273 U.S. 236, United States Supreme Court (1927) ---

-- "Whether express or implied, a license is a contract 'governed
by ordinary principles of state contract law.'"; McCoy v.
Mitsuboshi Cutlery, Inc., 67. F.3d 917, (United States Court of
Appeals for the Federal Circuit 1995) --

-- "Although the United States Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. 101-
1332, grants exclusive jurisdiction for infringement claims to the
federal courts, those courts construe copyrights as contracts and
turn to the relevant state law to interpret them."; Automation by
Design, Inc. v. Raybestos Products Co., 463 F.3d 749, (United
States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit 2006) --
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 14:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
But after a copy has been made under the license contract, that copy
falls under 17 USC 109 (which limits exclusive distribution right of the
copyright owner) and the only cause of action regarding non-compliance
with the distribution requirements is a contract breach claim, not
copyright infringement claim.
NO, that's false. The GPL specifies different requirements for
copies made for own use and for copies made for distribution.
You cannot accept the restrictions for the former, create such
a copy, and then attempt to distribute it as if it were for the
latter.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-05 15:26:34 UTC
Permalink
Hyman Rosen wrote:
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
NO, that's false. The GPL specifies different requirements for
copies made for own use and for copies made for distribution.
Stop hallucinating Hyman.

Even if the GPL would really specify "different requirements" for copies
made for own use and for copies made for distribution, that would NOT
change the fact that failure to fulfil such requirements is a contract
breach and not a copyright infringement, because the GNUtian
requirements are nether conditions precedent to the license grant nor
limitations of the rights granted (license scope limitations).

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 15:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Even if the GPL would really specify "different requirements" for copies
made for own use and for copies made for distribution, that would NOT
change the fact that failure to fulfil such requirements is a contract
breach and not a copyright infringement, because the GNUtian
requirements are nether conditions precedent to the license grant nor
limitations of the rights granted (license scope limitations).
<http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions/08-1001.pdf>
"Having determined that the terms of the Artistic License
are enforceable copyright conditions..."

In the battle of crank vs. court, crank loses. Always.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-05 16:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Even if the GPL would really specify "different requirements" for copies
made for own use and for copies made for distribution, that would NOT
change the fact that failure to fulfil such requirements is a contract
breach and not a copyright infringement, because the GNUtian
requirements are nether conditions precedent to the license grant nor
limitations of the rights granted (license scope limitations).
<http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions/08-1001.pdf>
"Having determined that the terms of the Artistic License
are enforceable copyright conditions..."
Yeah, CAFC and "copyright conditions"...

In Jacobsen, CAFC appears to be thoroughly confused regarding the
concepts of conditions, license scope limitations, and consideration
in the form of compliance with licensee's obligations.

To understand the concept of "conditions" see

http://law.scu.edu/FacWebPage/Neustadter/contractsebook/main/commentary/Promises%20and%20condtions.html

Also note CAFC's reliance on Diepenbrock v. Luiz:

"Under California contract law, “provided that” typically denotes a
condition. See, e.g., Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 159 Cal. 716 (1911)"

The CAFC further ruled:

"The choice to exact consideration in the form of compliance with the
open source requirements of disclosure and explanation of changes..."

How on earth can "disclosure and explanation of changes" come before
(be a condition precedent) to the license grant?

As discussed by The Supreme Court of California in Diepenbrock v. Luiz,
115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911), the term “provided” may or may not indicate
a condition, noting that “‘there is no magic in the term [“provided”],
and the clause in a contract is to be construed from the words employed
and from the purpose of the parties, gathered from the whole
instrument.’” Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911) (quoting
Boston Safe Dep. and Trust Co. v. Thomas, 53 P. 472 (Kan. 1898) (finding
that, based on a reading of an entire provision, a clause containing
“provided, that” was not a condition)).

“It is undoubtedly true, as claimed by appellant, that stipulations in a
contract are not construed as conditions precedent unless that
construction is made necessary by the terms of the contract. ( Deacon v.
Blodget, 111 Cal. 418, [44 Pac. 159]; Antonelle v. Lumber Co., 140 Cal.
318, [73 Pac. 966].) There are also well considered cases holding that
provided does not necessarily impose a condition. In Hartung v. Witte,
59 Wis. 285, [18 N. W. 177], it is said: ‘But the words, “upon the
express condition,” as here used, or the words “if it shall so happen”
or “provided however” and the like do not always make a condition, and
it is often a nice question to determine whether it is a condition or a
covenant and courts always construe similar clauses in a deed as
covenants rather than as conditions, if they can reasonably do so.’ (2
Washburn on Real Property, 4.)

“In Stanley v. Colt, 72 U.S. 119, [18 L. Ed. 502], it is declared that
‘The word provided though an appropriate word to constitute a common law
condition does not invariably and of necessity do so. On the contrary,
it may give way to the intent of the party as gathered from an
examination of the whole instrument, and be taken as expressing a
limitation in trust.’

“Similarly in Woodruff v. Woodruff, 44 N. J. Eq. 353, [16 Atl. 6, 1 L.
R. A. 380], it is said: ‘While the words “provided nevertheless” and
“upon the following conditions” are appropriate words to create a
condition, they do not of necessity create such an estate. They and
similar words, will give way when the intention of the grantor as
manifested by the whole deed, is otherwise, and they have frequently
been explained and applied as expressing simply a covenant or a
limitation in trust.’

“Indeed, the decisions are uniform to the point that, while ordinarily
the word ‘provided’ indicates that a condition follows, as expressed in
Boston S. and D. v. Thomas, 59 Kan. 470, [53 Pac. 472], ‘there is no
magic in the term, and the clause in a contract is to be construed from
the words employed and from the purpose of the parties, gathered from
the whole instrument.’

The Restatement (Second) of Contracts Article 224 states:

"Condition Defined:

A condition is an event, not certain to occur, which must occur, unless
its non-occurrence is excused, before performance under a contract
becomes due."

Obviously an "event" that depends on performance of a contract cannot
occur *before* performance of the contract becomes due. This result is
called an impossible condition in contract construction and is strictly
construed *against* the drafter.

The ruling of the CAFC reminds me of this limerick ridiculing the
theory of special relativity:

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was far faster than light.
She went out one day,
In a relative way
And returned the previous night!

– Arthur Reginald Buller

More:

1. http://www.crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3:mss:15936

-------
This is not legal advice...

As an attorney spending a great deal of time on software related IP
licensing and litigation matters, I find the CAFC decision in the
Jacobsen case to be troubling. While I am sympathetic to the court's
apparent desire to validate the concept of open source licensing and
its alternative forms of consideration, I do not believe that the
court's ruling justifies a euphoric response by the open source
community.

First, the CAFC's decision is a clear repudiation of the "bare
license" theory long espoused by Mr. Moglen and his followers. The
CAFC's decision reflects the fact that open source licenses, like any
other form of software licenses, are contracts. I agree with this
aspect of the decision as it is well supported by precedent at all
levels. Neither Mr. Moglen, nor any of his followers have cited legal
precedent in support of the bare license theory. The CAFC's decision
should serve as clear notice that the bare license theory is nothing
more than Moglen's wishful thinking. The necessary implication of this
finding by the court is that open source licenses must be interpreted
in the context of applicable state law, and to an extent, the common
law of the Federal Circuit in which the open source agreement is
interpreted. (This is directly in conflict with the CAFC's willful
failure to follow state law and Ninth Circuit precedent regarding the
interpretation of restrictions as conditions precedent).


Second, the CAFC's opinion creates a great deal of uncertainty for
software licensing (whether proprietary or open source). Let's take
the GPLv3 as an example. As most peoople are aware, there are a
variety of disagreements over exactly what is required of a licensee
to comply with various provisions of the GPL. Section 2 of the GPL
appears to "condition" the rights granted under the license on the
licensee's compliance with the "conditions" stated in the license.
Under the CAFC's decision in Jacobsen, it stands to reason that a
licensee that fails to fully satisfy the "conditions" stated in the
GPLv3 would infringe the licensor's copyrights rather than merely
breaching the license. Thus, even if the licensee unintentionally
violated the terms of the GPLv3 because the meaning of the terms are
not clear, the licensee would be liabile for infringement.


Why does this matter? State courts, the federal circuit courts of
appeal and the US Supreme Court have all uniformly and routinely
interpreted license restrictions as covenants rather than conditions
precedent. In other words, the courts presume that the restrictions
are covenants rather than conditions precedent unless the agreement
clearly defines the restrictions as conditions. the CAFC's decision
wholly ignores this long held principle of law.


Most licenses, open source or proprietary, contain provisions whose
meanings are open to viable debate. In the past, parties to a
software license have largely understood that a licensee that breaches
a license agreement's terms is liable to the licensor for damages
decided under contract law. Proprietary licenses typically include
provisions which define or otherwise limit the scope of damages that
may be recovered in the event of a breach. On the other hand, a party
that is liable for infringement of a copyright is subject to
injunctive relief and damages equal to the owner's actual damages
(plus the infringer's profits not covered by the owner's actual
damages) OR statutory damages of up to $150,000 per incidence of
infringement. Any contractually agreed limitations on damages would
be irrelevant in the infringement setting.


The CAFC's Jacobsen decision unwittingly attempts to radically change
the risks of licensing software. The CAFC states that any failure to
comply with a license provision that the license even generally calls
a "condition" is an infringement rather than a breach. Thus, any
licensee that violates the "conditions" of a license, even if
unintentional, is subject to infringement damages. If the CAFC's
decision stands and is generally followed in the Circuits and state
courts, (which it should not be), every license from this point
forward will need to clearly state which, if any, restrictions are
"conditions precedent" and which restrictions are merely covenants
(all other restrictions). Moreover, the provisions that are
conditions precedent will need to be defined with a high degree of
care to minimize a licensee's risk of unintentionally infringing the
copyrights as a result of miinterpreting the provisions.


Another side note - many licesne agreement issues are brought in state
courts. Section 301(a) of the Copyright Act, however, preempts any
state court from hearing or deciding any cause of action which is
equivalent to a copyright claim. If the CAFC's position is indeed the
law of the land, then any cause of action relating to a breach of a
provision in a license agreement that merely mentions the word
"condition" (or some synonym thereof), or that could conceivably be
interpreted as a condition precedent, will need to be decided by a
federal court. Otherwise, the parties run the risk of going through a
full trial in state court only to find that the state court has no
jurisdiction to even hear the matter in the first place because the
breach in fact constitutes an infringement.


Ultimately, the only people that will benefit from this decision are
attorneys. All open source licenses will need to be modified if the
decision stands ....
-------


2. http://www.crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3:mss:15939


-------
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
If the CAFC's position is indeed the law of the land, then
any cause of action relating to a breach of a provision in a license
agreement that merely mentions the word "condition" (or some
synonym
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
thereof), or that could conceivably be interpreted as a condition
precedent,
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
will need to be decided by a federal court. Otherwise, the parties
run the
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
risk of going through a full trial in state court only to find that
the
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
state court has no jurisdiction to even hear the matter in the first
place
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
because the breach in fact constitutes an infringement.
That is a technical matter that I have no opinion on.
[Marc Whipple] I am a lawyer, but this is not legal advice. Always
consult an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction and familiar with the
relevant law before making legal decisions.

I think you probably mean, "I do not consider myself able to offer an
informed opinion on this point," but the way it was phrased sounds a
little dismissive. If you didn't mean it that way, accept my apology if
I've over-read your statement.


That being said, calling this a "technical matter" is
oversimplification
to a rather radical degree. As an attorney who often walks the line
between questions of Federal and State jurisdiction it was one of my
first concerns when I read a summary of the decision this morning. The
utter pre-emption of matters even remotely concerned with the Copyright
Act means that this is a question of the utmost importance to anyone who
has anything to do with such licenses. I haven't read the full decision
yet, and so won't comment on whether the assertion the OP makes is
accurate, but if it is, he is right to be concerned. Among other things
it would mean that the enforcement of OS licenses just got, at the bare
minimum, a lot more expensive.
-------

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 16:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
CAFC appears to be thoroughly confused
Unfortunately for you, your opinion that the court is
confused does nothing to vitiate its ruling. In the
battle of crank vs. court, crank loses.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
To understand the concept of "conditions" see
Perhaps you should go lecture the court. Maybe you can
get the opinion reversed. Meanwhile, "Having determined
that the terms of the Artistic License are enforceable
copyright conditions" we can go forward assuming that
the GPL is a straightforward copyright license which
works just as it says it does.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-05 16:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
CAFC appears to be thoroughly confused
Unfortunately for you, your opinion that the court is
confused does nothing to vitiate its ruling. In the
battle of crank vs. court, crank loses.
It was explained to you many times that CAFC's opinion (authored by a
district court judge from New Jersey sitting by designation and
apparently having trouble to grasp California contract law regarding
conditions and confusing the concept of conditions with license scope
limitations and consideration in the form of compliance with licensee's
obligations) in the Jacobsen case is *non-precedential* amusing
BULLSHIT. CAFC has no authority to establish precedents in copyright
licensing matters.

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 16:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
It was explained to you many times
"Explained" would require argument, not wishful thinking.
"Explained" would require not hurling imprecations at a
judge with whom you disagree. You are "ranting".
Post by Alexander Terekhov
the Jacobsen case is *non-precedential*
Should any similar case arise, this case will be presented
as evidence of what another court found, regardless of whether
that decision is precedential in that case.
RJack
2010-08-05 16:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
CAFC appears to be thoroughly confused
Unfortunately for you, your opinion that the court is confused does
nothing to vitiate its ruling. In the battle of crank vs. court,
crank loses.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
To understand the concept of "conditions" see
Perhaps you should go lecture the court. Maybe you can get the
opinion reversed.
Why bother to get it reversed? The useless opinion carries with it no
precedential value whatsoever. Alexander's opinion carries just as much
legal weight:


"In Bandag, Inc. v. Al Bolser's Tire Stores, Inc., 750 F.2d 903, at 909
(Fed.Cir.1984), this court said:

Accordingly, we deem it appropriate here to decide non-patent matters in
the light of the problems faced by the district court from which each
count originated, including the law there applicable. In this manner, we
desire to avoid exacerbating the problem of intercircuit conflicts in
non-patent areas. A district court judge should not be expected to look
over his shoulder to the law in this circuit, save as to those claims
over which our subject matter jurisdiction is exclusive.

The freedom of the district courts to follow the guidance of their
particular circuits in all but the substantive law fields assigned
exclusively to this court is recognized in the foregoing opinions and in
this case."; ATARI, INC., v. JS & A GROUP, INC., 747 F.2d 1422, 223 USPQ
1074 (Fed. Cir. 1984) (sitting en banc)
Meanwhile, "Having determined that the terms of the Artistic License
are enforceable copyright conditions" we can go forward assuming that
the GPL is a straightforward copyright license which works just as it
says it does.
A-S-S-U-M-E will make an A-S-S out of U and M-E ever time Hyman.

Sincerely,
Rjack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 16:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Why bother to get it reversed? The useless opinion carries with it no
precedential value whatsoever.
Of course, the cranks in this newsgroup were quite pleased
when the earlier district court decision that their way. It
is natural to believe that confirming opinions are brilliant
and dissenting ones irrelevant. Nevertheless, we now have a
court opinion which unequivocally upholds copyright conditions
in an open license.
me
2010-08-05 17:22:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by RJack
Why bother to get it reversed? The useless opinion carries with it no
precedential value whatsoever.
Of course, the cranks in this newsgroup were quite pleased
when the earlier district court decision that their way. It
is natural to believe that confirming opinions are brilliant
and dissenting ones irrelevant. Nevertheless, we now have a
court opinion which unequivocally upholds copyright conditions
in an open license.
Please translate.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-05 19:11:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by me
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by RJack
Why bother to get it reversed? The useless opinion carries with it no
precedential value whatsoever.
Of course, the cranks in this newsgroup were quite pleased
when the earlier district court decision that their way. It
is natural to believe that confirming opinions are brilliant
and dissenting ones irrelevant. Nevertheless, we now have a
court opinion which unequivocally upholds copyright conditions
in an open license.
Please translate.
Hyman Rosen is spin doctoring CAFC's Jacobsen opinion in the same way as
Kuhn's Blog is spin doctoring the recent "GPL victory".

http://www.ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2010/08/03/more-gpl-success.html

"more-gpl-success"

LMAO!

"I'm really glad that a judge has agreed that the GPL is important
enough a license to warrant an injunction on out-of-compliance
distribution. This is a major step forward in GPL enforcement in the
USA. "

My, what a crook...

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 19:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Hyman Rosen is spin doctoring CAFC's Jacobsen opinion
The court ruled that the copyright conditions found in a specific
open license were indeed copyright conditions such that copying
without honoring them is copyright violation. This is cognitively
unacceptable to GPL cranks who have built their identity on asserting
the opposite, so they respond in various unconvincing ways, such as
by directing ad hominem attacks at the judge or by insisting that the
decision has no broad implications.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-05 19:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Hyman Rosen wrote:

[... copyright conditions ... copyright conditions ...]

http://youtu.be/s1S6RgyHURU

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
David Kastrup
2010-08-05 19:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Hyman Rosen is spin doctoring CAFC's Jacobsen opinion
The court ruled that the copyright conditions found in a specific
open license were indeed copyright conditions such that copying
without honoring them is copyright violation. This is cognitively
unacceptable to GPL cranks who have built their identity on asserting
the opposite, so they respond in various unconvincing ways, such as
by directing ad hominem attacks at the judge or by insisting that the
decision has no broad implications.
I think that trying to claim the effective reverse out of a factual
result like that would go by the title of "spin doctoring". Of course,
accusing everybody else of doing just that fits right in.

Our local cranks are vacillating somewhere between "spin doctoring" and
"fully delusional". The latter degree applies when they manage to
believe their own nonsense.

The kind of defiant embarrassment they exhibit whenever a court puts out
a verdict would tend to suggest the latter.
--
David Kastrup
RJack
2010-08-05 20:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Hyman Rosen is spin doctoring CAFC's Jacobsen opinion
The court ruled that the copyright conditions found in a specific
open license were indeed copyright conditions such that copying
without honoring them is copyright violation.
And the Artistic License is not the GPL license. This is cognitively
unacceptable to GPL crackpots on who have built their identity on
asserting false legal claims concerning the GPL license.
Post by Hyman Rosen
This is cognitively
unacceptable to GPL cranks who have built their identity on
asserting the opposite, so they respond in various unconvincing ways,
such as by directing ad hominem attacks at the judge or by insisting
that the decision has no broad implications.
You should really direct your flawed arguments toward the Best Buy Inc.
legal who have built their identity on
Post by Hyman Rosen
asserting the oppositeclaims against Erik Andersen.
***********************************************************************

FIRST COUNTERCLAIM
DECLARATORY JUDGMENT OF NON-INFRINGEMENT

9. Best Buy restates and realleges each of the allegations set forth in
the Counterclaim paragraphs 1-8 above.
10. By filing the instant Complaint, Plaintiffs have purported to assert
a claim for copyright infringement by Best Buy of copyrights in BusyBox.
11. Best Buy has not infringed any copyrights in BusyBox.
12. Best Buy is entitled to judgment that it has not infringed any
copyrights in BusyBox.
PRAYER FOR RELIEF

WHEREFORE, Defendant/Counterclaimant Best Buy prays for judgment in its
favor against Plaintiffs/Counterclaimants as follows:

1. Dismissing Plaintiffs’ cause of action with prejudice and on the merits;
2. Declaring that Best Buy has not infringed the alleged copyrights in
BusyBox;
3. Awarding Best Buy its costs, including reasonable attorneys’ fees,
incurred in connection with this matter; and
4. Awarding such other relief as this Court deems just and equitable.

***********************************************************************

You can kiss Erik Andersen's ass goodbye after he loses this one. The
ROBINS, KAPLAN, MILLER & CIRESI L.L.P. http://www.rkmc.com/ is one
of the top law firms in the country and they aren't going to be cheap.

The FSF and the SFLC will have no more influence in the open source
community than my pet Cocker Spaniel.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
ZnU
2010-08-07 09:29:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Hyman Rosen is spin doctoring CAFC's Jacobsen opinion
The court ruled that the copyright conditions found in a specific
open license were indeed copyright conditions such that copying
without honoring them is copyright violation.
And the Artistic License is not the GPL license. This is cognitively
unacceptable to GPL crackpots on who have built their identity on
asserting false legal claims concerning the GPL license.
In what way are they different such that the Artistic License creates
copyright conditions but the GPL does not?

[snip]
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
RJack
2010-08-07 10:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
Post by RJack
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Hyman Rosen is spin doctoring CAFC's Jacobsen opinion
The court ruled that the copyright conditions found in a specific
open license were indeed copyright conditions such that copying
without honoring them is copyright violation.
And the Artistic License is not the GPL license. This is
cognitively unacceptable to GPL crackpots on who have built their
identity on asserting false legal claims concerning the GPL
license.
In what way are they different such that the Artistic License creates
copyright conditions but the GPL does not?
[snip]
The Best Buy Inc. suit is being tried in the Southern District Court of
New York which resides in the jurisdiction of the Federal Court of
Appeals for the Second Circuit. The district court is *compelled* to
follow the precedents of the Second Circuit. Any copyright decision like
the Jacobsen v. Katzer Artistic License decision which was decided in
the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit is utterly irrelevant.
The Federal Circuit *cannot* set precedent in copyright law in *any*
Circuit -- its a court of appeals designated for patent cases. The case
of Graham v. James 144 F.3d 229 (2d Cir. 1998)
http://blog.internetcases.com/2009/02/18/retrospective-graham-v-james/
and its descendants in the Second Circuit will control the Best Buy Inc.
copyright litigation.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
ZnU
2010-08-07 18:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by ZnU
Post by RJack
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Hyman Rosen is spin doctoring CAFC's Jacobsen opinion
The court ruled that the copyright conditions found in a specific
open license were indeed copyright conditions such that copying
without honoring them is copyright violation.
And the Artistic License is not the GPL license. This is
cognitively unacceptable to GPL crackpots on who have built their
identity on asserting false legal claims concerning the GPL
license.
In what way are they different such that the Artistic License creates
copyright conditions but the GPL does not?
[snip]
The Best Buy Inc. suit is being tried in the Southern District Court of
New York which resides in the jurisdiction of the Federal Court of
Appeals for the Second Circuit. The district court is *compelled* to
follow the precedents of the Second Circuit. Any copyright decision like
the Jacobsen v. Katzer Artistic License decision which was decided in
the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit is utterly irrelevant.
The Federal Circuit *cannot* set precedent in copyright law in *any*
Circuit -- its a court of appeals designated for patent cases. The case
of Graham v. James 144 F.3d 229 (2d Cir. 1998)
http://blog.internetcases.com/2009/02/18/retrospective-graham-v-james/
and its descendants in the Second Circuit will control the Best Buy Inc.
copyright litigation.
That's not really an answer. I wasn't asking if the Jacobsen v. Katzer
precedent was legally binding on the court hearing the Best Buy case. I
was asking, essentially, why I should accept your opinion with respect
to whether the terms of a software license are covenants or conditions
over the opinion of a federal judge.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
RJack
2010-08-07 22:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
not really an answer. I wasn't asking if the Jacobsen v. Katzer
precedent was legally binding on the court hearing the Best Buy case.
I was asking, essentially, why I should accept your opinion with
respect to whether the terms of a software license are covenants or
conditions over the opinion of a federal judge.
You are free to accept anything you wish. Why not read the case decision
for yourself?

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17776182574171214893&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

You can easily google the term "condition precedent" for yourself and
decide for yourself what it means. If you decide the appellate judge in
the Artistic License case was correct then you are thinking for yourself
and that's a good thing.

As for me, District Judge White who has a professional legal career
spanning over forty years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_White
came to a conclusion very different from the Appellate Court. His ruling
was consistent with every decision I have ever read concerning
copyright licenses (the deciding factor for me) and "conditions
precedent". When I question a ruling of an appellate court I carefully
research the case law in general in a broad variety of contexts.

Perhaps your question could be re-phrased "why should I accept Judge
White's opinion with respect to whether the terms of a software license
are covenants or conditions over the opinion of another federal judge."

Google is your friend. Have at it.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-07 14:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
Post by RJack
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Hyman Rosen is spin doctoring CAFC's Jacobsen opinion
The court ruled that the copyright conditions found in a specific
open license were indeed copyright conditions such that copying
without honoring them is copyright violation.
And the Artistic License is not the GPL license. This is cognitively
unacceptable to GPL crackpots on who have built their identity on
asserting false legal claims concerning the GPL license.
In what way are they different such that the Artistic License creates
copyright conditions but the GPL does not?
In Jacobsen, CAFC appears to be thoroughly confused regarding the
concepts of conditions, license scope limitations, and consideration
in the form of compliance with licensee's obligations.

To understand the concept of "conditions" see

http://law.scu.edu/FacWebPage/Neustadter/contractsebook/main/commentary/Promises%20and%20condtions.html

Also note CAFC's reliance on Diepenbrock v. Luiz:

"Under California contract law, “provided that” typically denotes a
condition. See, e.g., Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 159 Cal. 716 (1911)"

The CAFC further ruled:

"The choice to exact consideration in the form of compliance with the
open source requirements of disclosure and explanation of changes..."

How on earth can "disclosure and explanation of changes" come before
(be a condition precedent) to the license grant?

As discussed by The Supreme Court of California in Diepenbrock v. Luiz,
115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911), the term “provided” may or may not indicate
a condition, noting that “‘there is no magic in the term [“provided”],
and the clause in a contract is to be construed from the words employed
and from the purpose of the parties, gathered from the whole
instrument.’” Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911) (quoting
Boston Safe Dep. and Trust Co. v. Thomas, 53 P. 472 (Kan. 1898) (finding
that, based on a reading of an entire provision, a clause containing
“provided, that” was not a condition)).

“It is undoubtedly true, as claimed by appellant, that stipulations in a
contract are not construed as conditions precedent unless that
construction is made necessary by the terms of the contract. ( Deacon v.
Blodget, 111 Cal. 418, [44 Pac. 159]; Antonelle v. Lumber Co., 140 Cal.
318, [73 Pac. 966].) There are also well considered cases holding that
provided does not necessarily impose a condition. In Hartung v. Witte,
59 Wis. 285, [18 N. W. 177], it is said: ‘But the words, “upon the
express condition,” as here used, or the words “if it shall so happen”
or “provided however” and the like do not always make a condition, and
it is often a nice question to determine whether it is a condition or a
covenant and courts always construe similar clauses in a deed as
covenants rather than as conditions, if they can reasonably do so.’ (2
Washburn on Real Property, 4.)

“In Stanley v. Colt, 72 U.S. 119, [18 L. Ed. 502], it is declared that
‘The word provided though an appropriate word to constitute a common law
condition does not invariably and of necessity do so. On the contrary,
it may give way to the intent of the party as gathered from an
examination of the whole instrument, and be taken as expressing a
limitation in trust.’

“Similarly in Woodruff v. Woodruff, 44 N. J. Eq. 353, [16 Atl. 6, 1 L.
R. A. 380], it is said: ‘While the words “provided nevertheless” and
“upon the following conditions” are appropriate words to create a
condition, they do not of necessity create such an estate. They and
similar words, will give way when the intention of the grantor as
manifested by the whole deed, is otherwise, and they have frequently
been explained and applied as expressing simply a covenant or a
limitation in trust.’

“Indeed, the decisions are uniform to the point that, while ordinarily
the word ‘provided’ indicates that a condition follows, as expressed in
Boston S. and D. v. Thomas, 59 Kan. 470, [53 Pac. 472], ‘there is no
magic in the term, and the clause in a contract is to be construed from
the words employed and from the purpose of the parties, gathered from
the whole instrument.’

The Restatement (Second) of Contracts Article 224 states:

"Condition Defined:

A condition is an event, not certain to occur, which must occur, unless
its non-occurrence is excused, before performance under a contract
becomes due."

Obviously an "event" that depends on performance of a contract cannot
occur *before* performance of the contract becomes due. This result is
called an impossible condition in contract construction and is strictly
construed *against* the drafter.

The ruling of the CAFC reminds me of this limerick ridiculing the
theory of special relativity:

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was far faster than light.
She went out one day,
In a relative way
And returned the previous night!

– Arthur Reginald Buller

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
David Kastrup
2010-08-07 17:24:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
In Jacobsen, CAFC appears to be thoroughly confused regarding the
concepts of conditions, license scope limitations, and consideration
in the form of compliance with licensee's obligations.
I consider it more likely that a notorious crank with a track record of
100% failure in his legal predictions is thoroughly confused than a
judge in the appellate court.
--
David Kastrup
RJack
2010-08-05 20:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Hyman Rosen is spin doctoring CAFC's Jacobsen opinion
The court ruled that the copyright conditions found in a specific
open license were indeed copyright conditions such that copying
without honoring them is copyright violation. This is cognitively
unacceptable to GPL cranks who have built their identity on asserting
the opposite, so they respond in various unconvincing ways, such as
by directing ad hominem attacks at the judge or by insisting that the
decision has no broad implications.
And the Artistic License is not the GPL license. This is cognitively
unacceptable to GPL crackpots on who have built their identity on
asserting false legal claims concerning the GPL license.

You should really direct your flawed arguments toward the Best Buy Inc.
legal claims:

***********************************************************************

FIRST COUNTERCLAIM
DECLARATORY JUDGMENT OF NON-INFRINGEMENT

9. Best Buy restates and realleges each of the allegations set forth in
the Counterclaim paragraphs 1-8 above.
10. By filing the instant Complaint, Plaintiffs have purported to assert
a claim for copyright infringement by Best Buy of copyrights in BusyBox.
11. Best Buy has not infringed any copyrights in BusyBox.
12. Best Buy is entitled to judgment that it has not infringed any
copyrights in BusyBox.
PRAYER FOR RELIEF

WHEREFORE, Defendant/Counterclaimant Best Buy prays for judgment in its
favor against Plaintiffs/Counterclaimants as follows:

1. Dismissing Plaintiffs’ cause of action with prejudice and on the merits;
2. Declaring that Best Buy has not infringed the alleged copyrights in
BusyBox;
3. Awarding Best Buy its costs, including reasonable attorneys’ fees,
incurred in connection with this matter; and
4. Awarding such other relief as this Court deems just and equitable.

***********************************************************************

You can kiss Erik Andersen's ass goodbye after he loses this one. The
ROBINS, KAPLAN, MILLER & CIRESI L.L.P. http://www.rkmc.com/ is one
of the top law firms in the country and they aren't going to be cheap.

The FSF and the SFLC will have no more influence in the open source
community than my pet Cocker Spaniel. They'll be exposed for the
fraudulent clowns they are.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
RJack
2010-08-05 16:40:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Even if the GPL would really specify "different requirements" for
copies made for own use and for copies made for distribution, that
would NOT change the fact that failure to fulfil such requirements
is a contract breach and not a copyright infringement, because the
GNUtian requirements are nether conditions precedent to the
license grant nor limitations of the rights granted (license scope
limitations).
<http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions/08-1001.pdf> "Having
determined that the terms of the Artistic License are enforceable
copyright conditions..."
In the battle of crank vs. court, crank loses. Always.
Ah Hyman, your clever attempt at bait and switch between Artist License
and GPL license may fool some people but do you really think you can
fool a Corleone?

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 16:49:50 UTC
Permalink
bait and switch between Artist License and GPL
We have a court ruling on copyright conditions of an
open license. It is likely that similar rulings would
be made for similar licenses. Naturally, given the
ruling, cranks obsessed with the GPL would like to
argue that the GPL is sui generis, but there is no
particular reason to believe that.
ZnU
2010-08-06 19:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by ZnU
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Once a copy is made under the GPL, it falls under "first sale" on the
only cause of action is the contract breach, not copyright infringement.
I'm not sure I'm exactly grasping your point. Yes, the GPL, once
accepted, is a contract. But it's a contract backed up by the force of
copyright law, because if you don't accept the contract you have no
right to distribute additional copies of the software.
You have no right to make a copy in the first place so you have to
accept the license contract in order to make a copy.
But after a copy has been made under the license contract, that copy
falls under 17 USC 109 (which limits exclusive distribution right of the
copyright owner) and the only cause of action regarding non-compliance
with the distribution requirements is a contract breach claim, not
copyright infringement claim.
OK, I understand your argument. But I'm not sure I buy it. Are you
saying if I sign a contract with someone that says I can make as many
copies of their software as I want for $5 each, and then go and make a
bunch of copies and don't pay for them, I have merely breached a
contract and not committed copyright violation? I sort of doubt a court
would find that way.

[snip]
Post by Alexander Terekhov
And what are the economic damages in thwe case of publicly available
FREE software?
<chuckles>
http://www.goodwinprocter.com/~/media/Files/Publications/Newsletters/IP%20Aler
t/2009/Jacobsen_v_Katzer_Court_Again_Denies_Preliminary_Injunction_for_Breach_
of_Open_Source_License.ashx
(Jacobsen v. Katzer: District Court Again Denies Preliminary Injunction
for
Breach of Open Source License)
"... plaintiffs seeking to enforce an open source license would be well
advised to introduce evidence of economic harm suffered or the threat of
imminent economic harm if they seek injunctive relief."
This does not really address the copyright infringement vs. contract
breech issue.

But either way, it probably _is_ the case that failing to comply with
the letter of the GPL, but in a way that damages nobody, is not legally
actionable. So, for instance, if you distribute GPL software in
executable form, but fail to provide or offer to provide source, this is
probably not actionable if the source is trivially available elsewhere.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-06 19:46:01 UTC
Permalink
ZnU wrote:
[...]
Post by ZnU
OK, I understand your argument. But I'm not sure I buy it. Are you
saying if I sign a contract with someone that says I can make as many
copies of their software as I want for $5 each, and then go and make a
bunch of copies and don't pay for them, I have merely breached a
contract and not committed copyright violation?
Yep.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=case&no=969224

"Third, James argues that the license was voided when Graham breached
its conditions by nonpayment of royalties and removal of James's
copyright notice. This argument turns--and fails--on the distinction
in contract between a condition and a covenant. Generally, "[i]f the
[licensee's] improper conduct constitutes a breach of a covenant
undertaken by the [licensee] . . . and if such covenant constitutes an
enforcible contractual obligation, then the [licensor] will have a
cause of action for breach of contract," not copyright infringement. 3
Nimmer on Copyright , supra , § 10.15[A], at 10-120. However, "[i]f
the nature of a licensee's violation consists of a failure to satisfy
a condition to the license . . ., it follows that the rights dependant
upon satisfaction of such condition have not been effectively
licensed, and therefore, any use by the licensee is without authority
from the licensor and may therefore, constitute an infringement of
copyright." Id. at 10-121 (citations omitted); see also Fantastic
Fakes, Inc. v. Pickwick Int'l, Inc. , 661 F.2d 479, 483-84 (5th Cir.
1981). A condition has been defined as "any fact or event which
qualifies a duty to perform." Costello Publ'g Co. v. Rotelle , 670
F.2d 1035, 1045 n.15 (D.C. Cir. 1981) (citing Corbin, Conditions in
the Law of Contract , 28 Yale L.J. 739 (1919)).

We think that the payment of royalties and the inclusion of a notice
crediting James's authorship are to be considered covenants, not
conditions. The construction of the licensing agreement is governed by
New York law. See Bartsch v. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, Inc. , 391 F.2d 150,
153 (2d Cir. 1968). Generally speaking, New York respects a
presumption that terms of a contract are covenants rather than
conditions. See Grand Union Co. v. Cord Meyer Dev. Co. , 761 F.2d 141,
147 (2d Cir. 1985) ("In the absence of more compelling evidence that
the parties intended to create a condition, the negotiation provision
must be construed as a promise or covenant."); Warth v. Greif , 106
N.Y.S. 163, 165 (2d Dep't 1907) ("The law favors covenants, rather
than conditions precedent."), aff'd , 193 N.Y. 661 (1908). Graham and
James orally agreed to the licensing agreement and did not clearly
delineate its conditions and covenants. Further, it is important that
James turned over the C version for use before any royalties were
paid, and that the first version of PDSI-004-1 was published with the
proper notice of authorship, because contract obligations that are to
be performed after partial performance by the other party are not
treated as conditions. 22 N.Y. Jur. 2d Contracts § 265 (1996); see
also Jacob Maxwell, Inc. , 110 F.3d at 754 (holding that payment of
royalties and crediting of author were covenants because "[the
composer] expressly granted [the licensee] permission to play the song
before payment was tendered or recognition received"); I.A.E., Inc. ,
74 F.3d at 778 (holding that full payment was not a condition
precedent when the licensee received the copyrighted drawings after
tendering only half the required payment).

Guided by that analysis, together with New York's presumption favoring
covenants over conditions and the district court's clear finding that
a licensing agreement came into existence, we conclude that the notice
and royalty obligations would likely be considered covenants, and
cannot be relied upon by James as conditions. "

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
ZnU
2010-08-06 20:40:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by ZnU
OK, I understand your argument. But I'm not sure I buy it. Are you
saying if I sign a contract with someone that says I can make as many
copies of their software as I want for $5 each, and then go and make a
bunch of copies and don't pay for them, I have merely breached a
contract and not committed copyright violation?
Yep.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=case&no=96922
4
"Third, James argues that the license was voided when Graham breached
its conditions by nonpayment of royalties and removal of James's
copyright notice. This argument turns--and fails--on the distinction
in contract between a condition and a covenant. Generally, "[i]f the
[licensee's] improper conduct constitutes a breach of a covenant
undertaken by the [licensee] . . . and if such covenant constitutes an
enforcible contractual obligation, then the [licensor] will have a
cause of action for breach of contract," not copyright infringement. 3
Nimmer on Copyright , supra , § 10.15[A], at 10-120. However, "[i]f
the nature of a licensee's violation consists of a failure to satisfy
a condition to the license . . ., it follows that the rights dependant
upon satisfaction of such condition have not been effectively
licensed, and therefore, any use by the licensee is without authority
from the licensor and may therefore, constitute an infringement of
copyright." Id. at 10-121 (citations omitted); see also Fantastic
Fakes, Inc. v. Pickwick Int'l, Inc. , 661 F.2d 479, 483-84 (5th Cir.
1981). A condition has been defined as "any fact or event which
qualifies a duty to perform." Costello Publ'g Co. v. Rotelle , 670
F.2d 1035, 1045 n.15 (D.C. Cir. 1981) (citing Corbin, Conditions in
the Law of Contract , 28 Yale L.J. 739 (1919)).
We think that the payment of royalties and the inclusion of a notice
crediting James's authorship are to be considered covenants, not
conditions. The construction of the licensing agreement is governed by
New York law. See Bartsch v. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, Inc. , 391 F.2d 150,
153 (2d Cir. 1968). Generally speaking, New York respects a
presumption that terms of a contract are covenants rather than
conditions. See Grand Union Co. v. Cord Meyer Dev. Co. , 761 F.2d 141,
147 (2d Cir. 1985) ("In the absence of more compelling evidence that
the parties intended to create a condition, the negotiation provision
must be construed as a promise or covenant."); Warth v. Greif , 106
N.Y.S. 163, 165 (2d Dep't 1907) ("The law favors covenants, rather
than conditions precedent."), aff'd , 193 N.Y. 661 (1908). Graham and
James orally agreed to the licensing agreement and did not clearly
delineate its conditions and covenants.
It seems to me the answer is not "Yep", as you say above, but rather, "it depends".

The GPL is not an oral agreement, and the word "conditions" appears all over it.
Thus there is very clear evidence of intent to create conditions that was lacking
in the case you cite. And the conditions the GPL sets out would seem to meet the
required definition given above.

All you've demonstrated here is that it's possible to undermine one's ability to
sue for copyright infringement by being sufficiently sloppy. This is not
especially surprising.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Further, it is important that James turned over the C version for use
before any royalties were paid, and that the first version of
PDSI-004-1 was published with the proper notice of authorship,
because contract obligations that are to be performed after partial
performance by the other party are not treated as conditions. 22 N.Y.
Jur. 2d Contracts § 265 (1996); see also Jacob Maxwell, Inc. , 110
F.3d at 754 (holding that payment of royalties and crediting of
author were covenants because "[the composer] expressly granted [the
licensee] permission to play the song before payment was tendered or
recognition received"); I.A.E., Inc. , 74 F.3d at 778 (holding that
full payment was not a condition precedent when the licensee received
the copyrighted drawings after tendering only half the required
payment).
This also does not really seem applicable to the GPL, because the GPL does not
grant permission to redistribute _prior_ to meeting the necessary conditions.
Rather, you must meet the necessary conditions simultaneously with the
distribution.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Guided by that analysis, together with New York's presumption
favoring covenants over conditions and the district court's clear
finding that a licensing agreement came into existence, we conclude
that the notice and royalty obligations would likely be considered
covenants, and cannot be relied upon by James as conditions. "
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-06 21:09:49 UTC
Permalink
ZnU wrote:
[...]
Post by ZnU
Thus there is very clear evidence of intent to create conditions
that was lacking in the case you cite. And the conditions the GPL
<chuckles>

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100803132055210

(from comments)

-----
Let's Think This Through

Authored by: PJ on Wednesday, August 04 2010 @ 07:56 PM EDT

Um. You are quoting from a case [PDF] that had nothing to do with the
GPL. It was a fraud and breach of contract case, among other things,
having nothing to do with software.

You don't enforce the GPL with contract law.

So your comment makes no sense, not to put too fine a point on it. You
enforce the GPL exclusively with copyright law, and there is no issue of
breach of a condition precedent.

Do you know what that means? Here's what condition precedent means:

condition precedent n. 1) in a contract, an event which must take place
before a party to a contract must perform or do their part. 2) in a deed
to real property, an event which has to occur before the title (or other
right) to the property will actually be in the name (vest) of the party
receiving title. Examples: if the ship makes it to port, the buyer
agrees to pay for the freight on the ship and unload it; when daughter
Gracella marries she shall then have full title to the property.

There are no conditions precedent in the GPL. None. And there's no
breach of contract. It's all about copyright law. So what is it you are
saying? There's no connection at all to the GPL or what is being
discussed in the BestBuy case.
-----

He he.

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
David Kastrup
2010-08-07 07:41:11 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by ZnU
OK, I understand your argument. But I'm not sure I buy it. Are you
saying if I sign a contract with someone that says I can make as many
copies of their software as I want for $5 each, and then go and make a
bunch of copies and don't pay for them, I have merely breached a
contract and not committed copyright violation?
Yep.
Quite so. The same would hold if you signed a contract where you agree
to keep the conditions of the GPL in using and redistributing software.

If, however, no act of yours supports the contention that you ever
intended any contractual relationship governed by the conditions of the
GPL, you certainly might be accused of copyright violation. You might
want to claim wanting to make use of the GPL in discovery, but you
better submit evidence in support of that.
--
David Kastrup
ZnU
2010-08-07 09:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
[...]
Post by ZnU
OK, I understand your argument. But I'm not sure I buy it. Are you
saying if I sign a contract with someone that says I can make as many
copies of their software as I want for $5 each, and then go and make a
bunch of copies and don't pay for them, I have merely breached a
contract and not committed copyright violation?
Yep.
Quite so. The same would hold if you signed a contract where you agree
to keep the conditions of the GPL in using and redistributing software.
This turns out not to be the case, if you read what he actually cited.
In the presence of an agreement creating valid copyright conditions,
violating the terms under which you are allowed to copy something can
indeed be copyright violation. He simply cited a case with little
similarity to a hypothetical GPL case, in which conditions were not
properly established.
Post by David Kastrup
If, however, no act of yours supports the contention that you ever
intended any contractual relationship governed by the conditions of the
GPL, you certainly might be accused of copyright violation. You might
want to claim wanting to make use of the GPL in discovery, but you
better submit evidence in support of that.
Yes, that's another point. Blatantly performing actions inconsistent
with the GPL and then, when you get caught, insisting that you had
really accepted the license after all, but were just ignoring parts of
it, is the sort of thing that is very unlikely to amuse a judge.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-07 14:23:36 UTC
Permalink
ZnU wrote:
[...]
Post by ZnU
indeed be copyright violation. He simply cited a case with little
similarity to a hypothetical GPL case, in which conditions were not
properly established.
You seem to confuse conditions to the grant of rights and covenants in
consideration of the rights granted.

"While a party that owns copyright rights is ordinarily entitled to
pursue infringement claims against any third party who violates them,
the courts have recognized that the rights and remedies available to
copyright holders change significantly when the owner elects to give
others a nonexclusive license to use such property. In that situation,
the owner/user relationship is fundamentally different. Absent a
license, the rights of the copyright holder are governed by statutory
and common law rules applicable to such rights. With a license,
however, the terms and covenants of the license establish the
applicable rules. See Effects Associates, Inc. v. Cohen, 908 F.2d 555,
559 (9th Cir. 1990) (in granting a copyright license, the licensor
gives up its right to sue the licensee for infringement).

Recognizing that the existence of consensual licensing arrangements
significantly changes the applicable rules and the expectations of the
parties, federal courts have held that a party cannot normally pursue
a copyright infringement action based upon the licensees breach of
covenants in the license agreement. As a general rule, " if the
[licensees] improper conduct constitutes a breach of a covenant
undertaken by the licensee . . . and if such covenant constitutes an
enforceable contractual obligation, then the licensor will have the
cause of action for contract," not for copyright infringement. Graham
v. James , 144 F.3d 229, 236-37 (2d Cir. 1998) quoting 3 Melville B.
Nimmer & David Nimmer, Nimmer on Copyright, 10.15[A] at 10-120
(1998); see also Kolbe v. Trudel , 945 F. Supp. 1268, 1270-71
(D. Ariz. 1996). As the Ninth Circuit explained in Topolos v.
Caldewey, 698 F.2d 991, 993 (9th Cir. 1983):

[A] case does not arise under the federal copyright laws . . .
merely because the subject matter of the action involves or affects a
copyright. "

In Jacobsen, the CAFC ruled:

"The choice to exact consideration in the form of compliance with the
open source requirements of disclosure and explanation of changes..."

How on earth can "disclosure and explanation of changes" come before
(be a condition precedent) to the license grant?

As discussed by The Supreme Court of California in Diepenbrock v. Luiz,
115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911), the term “provided” may or may not indicate
a condition, noting that “‘there is no magic in the term [“provided”],
and the clause in a contract is to be construed from the words employed
and from the purpose of the parties, gathered from the whole
instrument.’” Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911) (quoting
Boston Safe Dep. and Trust Co. v. Thomas, 53 P. 472 (Kan. 1898) (finding
that, based on a reading of an entire provision, a clause containing
“provided, that” was not a condition)).

“It is undoubtedly true, as claimed by appellant, that stipulations in a
contract are not construed as conditions precedent unless that
construction is made necessary by the terms of the contract. ( Deacon v.
Blodget, 111 Cal. 418, [44 Pac. 159]; Antonelle v. Lumber Co., 140 Cal.
318, [73 Pac. 966].) There are also well considered cases holding that
provided does not necessarily impose a condition. In Hartung v. Witte,
59 Wis. 285, [18 N. W. 177], it is said: ‘But the words, “upon the
express condition,” as here used, or the words “if it shall so happen”
or “provided however” and the like do not always make a condition, and
it is often a nice question to determine whether it is a condition or a
covenant and courts always construe similar clauses in a deed as
covenants rather than as conditions, if they can reasonably do so.’ (2
Washburn on Real Property, 4.)

“In Stanley v. Colt, 72 U.S. 119, [18 L. Ed. 502], it is declared that
‘The word provided though an appropriate word to constitute a common law
condition does not invariably and of necessity do so. On the contrary,
it may give way to the intent of the party as gathered from an
examination of the whole instrument, and be taken as expressing a
limitation in trust.’

“Similarly in Woodruff v. Woodruff, 44 N. J. Eq. 353, [16 Atl. 6, 1 L.
R. A. 380], it is said: ‘While the words “provided nevertheless” and
“upon the following conditions” are appropriate words to create a
condition, they do not of necessity create such an estate. They and
similar words, will give way when the intention of the grantor as
manifested by the whole deed, is otherwise, and they have frequently
been explained and applied as expressing simply a covenant or a
limitation in trust.’

“Indeed, the decisions are uniform to the point that, while ordinarily
the word ‘provided’ indicates that a condition follows, as expressed in
Boston S. and D. v. Thomas, 59 Kan. 470, [53 Pac. 472], ‘there is no
magic in the term, and the clause in a contract is to be construed from
the words employed and from the purpose of the parties, gathered from
the whole instrument.’

The Restatement (Second) of Contracts Article 224 states:

"Condition Defined:

A condition is an event, not certain to occur, which must occur, unless
its non-occurrence is excused, before performance under a contract
becomes due."

Obviously an "event" that depends on performance of a contract cannot
occur *before* performance of the contract becomes due. This result is
called an impossible condition in contract construction and is strictly
construed *against* the drafter.

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
David Kastrup
2010-08-07 17:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by ZnU
indeed be copyright violation. He simply cited a case with little
similarity to a hypothetical GPL case, in which conditions were not
properly established.
You seem to confuse conditions to the grant of rights and covenants in
consideration of the rights granted.
[...]
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Recognizing that the existence of consensual licensing arrangements
significantly changes the applicable rules and the expectations of the
parties,
Where is a consensual licensing arrangement when the receiving party
never did anything to signal being interested in entering into such an
arrangement or heeding its conditions?
--
David Kastrup
ZnU
2010-08-07 18:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by ZnU
indeed be copyright violation. He simply cited a case with little
similarity to a hypothetical GPL case, in which conditions were not
properly established.
You seem to confuse conditions to the grant of rights and covenants in
consideration of the rights granted.
"While a party that owns copyright rights is ordinarily entitled to
pursue infringement claims against any third party who violates them,
the courts have recognized that the rights and remedies available to
copyright holders change significantly when the owner elects to give
others a nonexclusive license to use such property. In that situation,
the owner/user relationship is fundamentally different. Absent a
license, the rights of the copyright holder are governed by statutory
and common law rules applicable to such rights. With a license,
however, the terms and covenants of the license establish the
applicable rules. See Effects Associates, Inc. v. Cohen, 908 F.2d 555,
559 (9th Cir. 1990) (in granting a copyright license, the licensor
gives up its right to sue the licensee for infringement).
Recognizing that the existence of consensual licensing arrangements
significantly changes the applicable rules and the expectations of the
parties, federal courts have held that a party cannot normally pursue
a copyright infringement action based upon the licensees breach of
covenants in the license agreement. As a general rule, " if the
[licensees] improper conduct constitutes a breach of a covenant
undertaken by the licensee . . . and if such covenant constitutes an
enforceable contractual obligation, then the licensor will have the
cause of action for contract," not for copyright infringement. Graham
v. James , 144 F.3d 229, 236-37 (2d Cir. 1998) quoting 3 Melville B.
Nimmer & David Nimmer, Nimmer on Copyright, 10.15[A] at 10-120
(1998); see also Kolbe v. Trudel , 945 F. Supp. 1268, 1270-71
(D. Ariz. 1996). As the Ninth Circuit explained in Topolos v.
[A] case does not arise under the federal copyright laws . . .
merely because the subject matter of the action involves or affects a
copyright. "
"The choice to exact consideration in the form of compliance with the
open source requirements of disclosure and explanation of changes..."
How on earth can "disclosure and explanation of changes" come before
(be a condition precedent) to the license grant?
As discussed by The Supreme Court of California in Diepenbrock v. Luiz,
115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911), the term “provided” may or may not indicate
a condition, noting that “‘there is no magic in the term [“provided”],
and the clause in a contract is to be construed from the words employed
and from the purpose of the parties, gathered from the whole
instrument.’” Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911) (quoting
Boston Safe Dep. and Trust Co. v. Thomas, 53 P. 472 (Kan. 1898) (finding
that, based on a reading of an entire provision, a clause containing
“provided, that” was not a condition)).
“It is undoubtedly true, as claimed by appellant, that stipulations in a
contract are not construed as conditions precedent unless that
construction is made necessary by the terms of the contract. ( Deacon v.
Blodget, 111 Cal. 418, [44 Pac. 159]; Antonelle v. Lumber Co., 140 Cal.
318, [73 Pac. 966].) There are also well considered cases holding that
provided does not necessarily impose a condition. In Hartung v. Witte,
59 Wis. 285, [18 N. W. 177], it is said: ‘But the words, “upon the
express condition,” as here used, or the words “if it shall so happen”
or “provided however” and the like do not always make a condition, and
it is often a nice question to determine whether it is a condition or a
covenant and courts always construe similar clauses in a deed as
covenants rather than as conditions, if they can reasonably do so.’ (2
Washburn on Real Property, 4.)
“In Stanley v. Colt, 72 U.S. 119, [18 L. Ed. 502], it is declared that
‘The word provided though an appropriate word to constitute a common law
condition does not invariably and of necessity do so. On the contrary,
it may give way to the intent of the party as gathered from an
examination of the whole instrument, and be taken as expressing a
limitation in trust.’
“Similarly in Woodruff v. Woodruff, 44 N. J. Eq. 353, [16 Atl. 6, 1 L.
R. A. 380], it is said: ‘While the words “provided nevertheless” and
“upon the following conditions” are appropriate words to create a
condition, they do not of necessity create such an estate. They and
similar words, will give way when the intention of the grantor as
manifested by the whole deed, is otherwise, and they have frequently
been explained and applied as expressing simply a covenant or a
limitation in trust.’
“Indeed, the decisions are uniform to the point that, while ordinarily
the word ‘provided’ indicates that a condition follows, as expressed in
Boston S. and D. v. Thomas, 59 Kan. 470, [53 Pac. 472], ‘there is no
magic in the term, and the clause in a contract is to be construed from
the words employed and from the purpose of the parties, gathered from
the whole instrument.’
A condition is an event, not certain to occur, which must occur, unless
its non-occurrence is excused, before performance under a contract
becomes due."
Obviously an "event" that depends on performance of a contract cannot
occur *before* performance of the contract becomes due. This result is
called an impossible condition in contract construction and is strictly
construed *against* the drafter.
You seem to be trying very hard to raise doubt about Jacobsen v. Katzer,
the case that touches on this issue most closely. But you're offering
nothing particularly strong to favor the opposite position. You've
demonstrated that it's possible to fail to create a condition, but have
advanced no compelling argument that the GPL, specifically, fails to do
so.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-07 19:10:26 UTC
Permalink
ZnU wrote:
[...]
Post by ZnU
nothing particularly strong to favor the opposite position. You've
demonstrated that it's possible to fail to create a condition, but have
advanced no compelling argument that the GPL, specifically, fails to do
so.
Q) I want to create a full blown derivative work (a copy of which I may
want to distribute later) or a copy verbatim (which I may want to
distribute later) of the GPL'd work... what are the conditions in order
to gain the rights to do that?

A) None. The GPL has no conditions precedent.

Please prove me wrong.

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
ZnU
2010-08-07 20:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by ZnU
nothing particularly strong to favor the opposite position. You've
demonstrated that it's possible to fail to create a condition, but have
advanced no compelling argument that the GPL, specifically, fails to do
so.
Q) I want to create a full blown derivative work (a copy of which I may
want to distribute later) or a copy verbatim (which I may want to
distribute later) of the GPL'd work... what are the conditions in order
to gain the rights to do that?
A) None. The GPL has no conditions precedent.
Please prove me wrong.
I'm not interested in whatever games you want to play with shifting the
burden of proof. In Jacobsen v. Katzer, the Artistic License was found
to establish valid conditions, such that ignoring them while engaging in
actions otherwise not permitted by copyright law was found to be
copyright violation. You either need to explain a) specifically why the
Artistic License created valid conditions but the GPL did not or b) why
I should believe your opinion over that of a federal court.

Posting a bunch of general information about conditions vs. covenants,
which is what you keep doing, is not especially interesting when there
is a ruling that appears to have addressed the issue at hand far more
directly.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
RJack
2010-08-07 22:28:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
ZnU wrote: [...]
Post by ZnU
nothing particularly strong to favor the opposite position.
You've demonstrated that it's possible to fail to create a
condition, but have advanced no compelling argument that the GPL,
specifically, fails to do so.
Q) I want to create a full blown derivative work (a copy of which I
may want to distribute later) or a copy verbatim (which I may want
to distribute later) of the GPL'd work... what are the conditions
in order to gain the rights to do that?
A) None. The GPL has no conditions precedent.
Please prove me wrong.
I'm not interested in whatever games you want to play with shifting
the burden of proof. In Jacobsen v. Katzer, the Artistic License was
found to establish valid conditions, such that ignoring them while
engaging in actions otherwise not permitted by copyright law was
found to be copyright violation. You either need to explain a)
specifically why the Artistic License created valid conditions but
the GPL did not or b) why I should believe your opinion over that of
a federal court.
Posting a bunch of general information about conditions vs.
covenants, which is what you keep doing, is not especially
interesting when there is a ruling that appears to have addressed the
issue at hand far more directly.
The Artistic License is not the GPL License. Since you wish to eschew
researching and reasoning with "general information" perhaps you should
explain how you justify generalizing about the Artistic License in
relation to the GPL.

You are indeed correct that "you are not interested in carrying any
burden of proof". You claim the Artistic License generalizes to the GPL
but you can't prove it. It is you who are playing games by hypothesizing
and then refusing to carry your burden of proof.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
ZnU
2010-08-08 02:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by ZnU
ZnU wrote: [...]
Post by ZnU
nothing particularly strong to favor the opposite position.
You've demonstrated that it's possible to fail to create a
condition, but have advanced no compelling argument that the GPL,
specifically, fails to do so.
Q) I want to create a full blown derivative work (a copy of which I
may want to distribute later) or a copy verbatim (which I may want
to distribute later) of the GPL'd work... what are the conditions
in order to gain the rights to do that?
A) None. The GPL has no conditions precedent.
Please prove me wrong.
I'm not interested in whatever games you want to play with shifting
the burden of proof. In Jacobsen v. Katzer, the Artistic License was
found to establish valid conditions, such that ignoring them while
engaging in actions otherwise not permitted by copyright law was
found to be copyright violation. You either need to explain a)
specifically why the Artistic License created valid conditions but
the GPL did not or b) why I should believe your opinion over that of
a federal court.
Posting a bunch of general information about conditions vs.
covenants, which is what you keep doing, is not especially
interesting when there is a ruling that appears to have addressed the
issue at hand far more directly.
The Artistic License is not the GPL License. Since you wish to eschew
researching and reasoning with "general information" perhaps you should
explain how you justify generalizing about the Artistic License in
relation to the GPL.
You are indeed correct that "you are not interested in carrying any
burden of proof". You claim the Artistic License generalizes to the GPL
but you can't prove it. It is you who are playing games by hypothesizing
and then refusing to carry your burden of proof.
You're simply playing games. There is a _huge_ difference between
reasoning from general principles in the presence of case law that
apparently _disagrees_ with your conclusions, and using that same case
law to predict the outcome of an _extremely similar_ case. If you
believe there is some key difference between the Artistic License and
GPL that distinguishes these cases, name it.

Note that the appeals court, in its ruling, talks in fairly general
terms about "public licenses" and explicitly cites "GNU/Linux" --
complete with "GNU" -- as an example of software released under such a
license. It explicitly raises the issue of whether releasing software
under such public licenses preserves the right of authors to seek
copyright remedies and lays out the case that it does.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
RJack
2010-08-08 12:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
Post by RJack
Post by ZnU
ZnU wrote: [...]
Post by ZnU
nothing particularly strong to favor the opposite position.
You've demonstrated that it's possible to fail to create a
condition, but have advanced no compelling argument that the
GPL, specifically, fails to do so.
Q) I want to create a full blown derivative work (a copy of
which I may want to distribute later) or a copy verbatim
(which I may want to distribute later) of the GPL'd work...
what are the conditions in order to gain the rights to do
that?
A) None. The GPL has no conditions precedent.
Please prove me wrong.
I'm not interested in whatever games you want to play with
shifting the burden of proof. In Jacobsen v. Katzer, the
Artistic License was found to establish valid conditions, such
that ignoring them while engaging in actions otherwise not
permitted by copyright law was found to be copyright violation.
You either need to explain a) specifically why the Artistic
License created valid conditions but the GPL did not or b) why I
should believe your opinion over that of a federal court.
Posting a bunch of general information about conditions vs.
covenants, which is what you keep doing, is not especially
interesting when there is a ruling that appears to have
addressed the issue at hand far more directly.
The Artistic License is not the GPL License. Since you wish to
eschew researching and reasoning with "general information"
perhaps you should explain how you justify generalizing about the
Artistic License in relation to the GPL.
You are indeed correct that "you are not interested in carrying any
burden of proof". You claim the Artistic License generalizes to the
GPL but you can't prove it. It is you who are playing games by
hypothesizing and then refusing to carry your burden of proof.
You're simply playing games. There is a _huge_ difference between
reasoning from general principles in the presence of case law that
apparently _disagrees_ with your conclusions, and using that same
case law to predict the outcome of an _extremely similar_ case. If
you believe there is some key difference between the Artistic
License and GPL that distinguishes these cases, name it.
You've got it backwards again. You're the one claiming the GPL is
enforceable. I claim the GPL doesn't contain a valid condition
precedent. It is your burden to point to the condition precedent in the
GPL that establishes infringement. All you have to do is show what
*event* must be satisfied *before* copyright permissions are granted.
Just show me the condition precedent. Seems simple enough to me.
Post by ZnU
Note that the appeals court, in its ruling, talks in fairly general
terms about "public licenses" and explicitly cites "GNU/Linux" --
complete with "GNU" -- as an example of software released under such
a license.
So. the court observed there are "open source" licenses. So what?
There are also reams of closed source licenses. So what?
Post by ZnU
It explicitly raises the issue of whether releasing software under
such public licenses preserves the right of authors to seek
copyright remedies and lays out the case that it does.
Ah... A perfect Straw Man. No one is claiming that releasing software
under a "public license" (however that is legally defined) abrogates
copyrights.

So that you can't muddy the water, here is what I claim:

I am claiming that under U.S. law, a copyright license -- all copyright
licenses -- must be legally enforceable contracts under the common law
of the fifty states *as well as* federal copyright law.

I claim that the GPL is legally unenforceable under the common law of
contracts *and* is preempted under federal copyright law.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-09 15:46:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Q) I want to create a full blown derivative work (a copy of which I may
want to distribute later) or a copy verbatim (which I may want to
distribute later) of the GPL'd work... what are the conditions in order
to gain the rights to do that?
There are no conditions for making a derivative work,
combined work, or simple copy of a GPLed work for your
own use. If you wish to copy and distribute such works,
you must make the source code of the work you distribute
as a whole available under the terms of the GPL.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-09 17:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Q) I want to create a full blown derivative work (a copy of which I may
want to distribute later) or a copy verbatim (which I may want to
distribute later) of the GPL'd work... what are the conditions in order
to gain the rights to do that?
There are no conditions for making a derivative work,
combined work, or simple copy of a GPLed work ...
Right.

There are no conditions precedent for making a derivative work, combined
work, or simple copy of a GPLed work.

What does that have to do with "for your own use" silly Hyman?

What is "your own use" you retard?

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-09 17:43:15 UTC
Permalink
What is "your own use"?
A copy which will not be distributed.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-09 17:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
What is "your own use"?
A copy which will not be distributed.
See 17 USC 109, silly.

"Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106(3), the owner of a
particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any
person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of
the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of
that copy or phonorecord. . . ."

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-09 18:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
See 17 USC 109
"Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106(3), the owner of a
particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title
When a license gives you permission to make a copy for
personal use, and then you distribute it, you do not
have a copy lawfully made under this title, because you
only have permission to make a copy not for distribution.

You are permitted to make a copy of a broadcast television
program for your own use. You are not permitted to distribute
such copies.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-09 18:17:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
See 17 USC 109
"Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106(3), the owner of a
particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title
When a license gives you permission to make a copy for
personal use, and then you distribute it, you do not
have a copy lawfully made under this title, because you
only have permission to make a copy not for distribution.
Sez who?

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-09 18:30:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Sez who?
US copyright law.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-09 19:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Sez who?
US copyright law.
Quote it, silly.

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)

RJack
2010-08-07 22:11:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
ZnU wrote: [...]
Post by ZnU
indeed be copyright violation. He simply cited a case with little
similarity to a hypothetical GPL case, in which conditions were
not properly established.
You seem to confuse conditions to the grant of rights and
covenants in consideration of the rights granted.
"While a party that owns copyright rights is ordinarily entitled to
pursue infringement claims against any third party who violates
them, the courts have recognized that the rights and remedies
available to copyright holders change significantly when the owner
elects to give others a nonexclusive license to use such property.
In that situation, the owner/user relationship is fundamentally
different. Absent a license, the rights of the copyright holder
are governed by statutory and common law rules applicable to such
rights. With a license, however, the terms and covenants of the
license establish the applicable rules. See Effects Associates,
Inc. v. Cohen, 908 F.2d 555, 559 (9th Cir. 1990) (in granting a
copyright license, the licensor gives up its right to sue the
licensee for infringement).
Recognizing that the existence of consensual licensing arrangements
significantly changes the applicable rules and the expectations of
the parties, federal courts have held that a party cannot normally
pursue a copyright infringement action based upon the licensees
breach of covenants in the license agreement. As a general rule, "
if the [licensees] improper conduct constitutes a breach of a
covenant undertaken by the licensee . . . and if such covenant
constitutes an enforceable contractual obligation, then the
licensor will have the cause of action for contract," not for
copyright infringement. Graham v. James , 144 F.3d 229, 236-37 (2d
Cir. 1998) quoting 3 Melville B. Nimmer& David Nimmer, Nimmer on
Copyright, 10.15[A] at 10-120 (1998); see also Kolbe v. Trudel ,
945 F. Supp. 1268, 1270-71 (D. Ariz. 1996). As the Ninth Circuit
explained in Topolos v. Caldewey, 698 F.2d 991, 993 (9th Cir.
[A] case does not arise under the federal copyright laws . . .
merely because the subject matter of the action involves or
affects a copyright. "
"The choice to exact consideration in the form of compliance with
the open source requirements of disclosure and explanation of
changes..."
How on earth can "disclosure and explanation of changes" come
before (be a condition precedent) to the license grant?
As discussed by The Supreme Court of California in Diepenbrock v.
Luiz, 115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911), the term “provided” may or may
not indicate a condition, noting that “‘there is no magic in the
term [“provided”], and the clause in a contract is to be construed
from the words employed and from the purpose of the parties,
gathered from the whole instrument.’” Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 115 P.
743, 744 (Cal. 1911) (quoting Boston Safe Dep. and Trust Co. v.
Thomas, 53 P. 472 (Kan. 1898) (finding that, based on a reading of
an entire provision, a clause containing “provided, that” was not
a condition)).
“It is undoubtedly true, as claimed by appellant, that
stipulations in a contract are not construed as conditions
precedent unless that construction is made necessary by the terms
of the contract. ( Deacon v. Blodget, 111 Cal. 418, [44 Pac. 159];
Antonelle v. Lumber Co., 140 Cal. 318, [73 Pac. 966].) There are
also well considered cases holding that provided does not
necessarily impose a condition. In Hartung v. Witte, 59 Wis. 285,
[18 N. W. 177], it is said: ‘But the words, “upon the express
condition,” as here used, or the words “if it shall so happen” or
“provided however” and the like do not always make a condition, and
it is often a nice question to determine whether it is a condition
or a covenant and courts always construe similar clauses in a deed
as covenants rather than as conditions, if they can reasonably do
so.’ (2 Washburn on Real Property, 4.)
“In Stanley v. Colt, 72 U.S. 119, [18 L. Ed. 502], it is declared
that ‘The word provided though an appropriate word to constitute a
common law condition does not invariably and of necessity do so.
On the contrary, it may give way to the intent of the party as
gathered from an examination of the whole instrument, and be taken
as expressing a limitation in trust.’
“Similarly in Woodruff v. Woodruff, 44 N. J. Eq. 353, [16 Atl. 6,
1 L. R. A. 380], it is said: ‘While the words “provided
nevertheless” and “upon the following conditions” are appropriate
words to create a condition, they do not of necessity create such
an estate. They and similar words, will give way when the intention
of the grantor as manifested by the whole deed, is otherwise, and
they have frequently been explained and applied as expressing
simply a covenant or a limitation in trust.’
“Indeed, the decisions are uniform to the point that, while
ordinarily the word ‘provided’ indicates that a condition follows,
as expressed in Boston S. and D. v. Thomas, 59 Kan. 470, [53 Pac.
472], ‘there is no magic in the term, and the clause in a contract
is to be construed from the words employed and from the purpose of
the parties, gathered from the whole instrument.’
A condition is an event, not certain to occur, which must occur,
unless its non-occurrence is excused, before performance under a
contract becomes due."
Obviously an "event" that depends on performance of a contract
cannot occur *before* performance of the contract becomes due.
This result is called an impossible condition in contract
construction and is strictly construed *against* the drafter.
You seem to be trying very hard to raise doubt about Jacobsen v.
Katzer, the case that touches on this issue most closely. But you're
offering nothing particularly strong to favor the opposite position.
You've demonstrated that it's possible to fail to create a
condition, but have advanced no compelling argument that the GPL,
specifically, fails to do so.
You seem to be trying very hard to claim the GPL creates a condition
precedent. Perhaps *you* should demonstrate where the GPL *does*
establish the criteria for forming a condition precedent.

Why should I believe that the GPL forms a condition precedent when
no one have ever demonstrated that it does so?

Sincerely,
RJack :)
ZnU
2010-08-08 07:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by ZnU
ZnU wrote: [...]
Post by ZnU
indeed be copyright violation. He simply cited a case with little
similarity to a hypothetical GPL case, in which conditions were
not properly established.
You seem to confuse conditions to the grant of rights and
covenants in consideration of the rights granted.
"While a party that owns copyright rights is ordinarily entitled to
pursue infringement claims against any third party who violates
them, the courts have recognized that the rights and remedies
available to copyright holders change significantly when the owner
elects to give others a nonexclusive license to use such property.
In that situation, the owner/user relationship is fundamentally
different. Absent a license, the rights of the copyright holder
are governed by statutory and common law rules applicable to such
rights. With a license, however, the terms and covenants of the
license establish the applicable rules. See Effects Associates,
Inc. v. Cohen, 908 F.2d 555, 559 (9th Cir. 1990) (in granting a
copyright license, the licensor gives up its right to sue the
licensee for infringement).
Recognizing that the existence of consensual licensing arrangements
significantly changes the applicable rules and the expectations of
the parties, federal courts have held that a party cannot normally
pursue a copyright infringement action based upon the licensees
breach of covenants in the license agreement. As a general rule, "
if the [licensees] improper conduct constitutes a breach of a
covenant undertaken by the licensee . . . and if such covenant
constitutes an enforceable contractual obligation, then the
licensor will have the cause of action for contract," not for
copyright infringement. Graham v. James , 144 F.3d 229, 236-37 (2d
Cir. 1998) quoting 3 Melville B. Nimmer& David Nimmer, Nimmer on
Copyright, 10.15[A] at 10-120 (1998); see also Kolbe v. Trudel ,
945 F. Supp. 1268, 1270-71 (D. Ariz. 1996). As the Ninth Circuit
explained in Topolos v. Caldewey, 698 F.2d 991, 993 (9th Cir.
[A] case does not arise under the federal copyright laws . . .
merely because the subject matter of the action involves or
affects a copyright. "
"The choice to exact consideration in the form of compliance with
the open source requirements of disclosure and explanation of
changes..."
How on earth can "disclosure and explanation of changes" come
before (be a condition precedent) to the license grant?
As discussed by The Supreme Court of California in Diepenbrock v.
Luiz, 115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911), the term ³provided² may or may
not indicate a condition, noting that ³Œthere is no magic in the
term [³provided²], and the clause in a contract is to be construed
from the words employed and from the purpose of the parties,
gathered from the whole instrument.¹² Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 115 P.
743, 744 (Cal. 1911) (quoting Boston Safe Dep. and Trust Co. v.
Thomas, 53 P. 472 (Kan. 1898) (finding that, based on a reading of
an entire provision, a clause containing ³provided, that² was not
a condition)).
³It is undoubtedly true, as claimed by appellant, that
stipulations in a contract are not construed as conditions
precedent unless that construction is made necessary by the terms
of the contract. ( Deacon v. Blodget, 111 Cal. 418, [44 Pac. 159];
Antonelle v. Lumber Co., 140 Cal. 318, [73 Pac. 966].) There are
also well considered cases holding that provided does not
necessarily impose a condition. In Hartung v. Witte, 59 Wis. 285,
[18 N. W. 177], it is said: ŒBut the words, ³upon the express
condition,² as here used, or the words ³if it shall so happen² or
³provided however² and the like do not always make a condition, and
it is often a nice question to determine whether it is a condition
or a covenant and courts always construe similar clauses in a deed
as covenants rather than as conditions, if they can reasonably do
so.¹ (2 Washburn on Real Property, 4.)
³In Stanley v. Colt, 72 U.S. 119, [18 L. Ed. 502], it is declared
that ŒThe word provided though an appropriate word to constitute a
common law condition does not invariably and of necessity do so.
On the contrary, it may give way to the intent of the party as
gathered from an examination of the whole instrument, and be taken
as expressing a limitation in trust.¹
³Similarly in Woodruff v. Woodruff, 44 N. J. Eq. 353, [16 Atl. 6,
1 L. R. A. 380], it is said: ŒWhile the words ³provided
nevertheless² and ³upon the following conditions² are appropriate
words to create a condition, they do not of necessity create such
an estate. They and similar words, will give way when the intention
of the grantor as manifested by the whole deed, is otherwise, and
they have frequently been explained and applied as expressing
simply a covenant or a limitation in trust.¹
³Indeed, the decisions are uniform to the point that, while
ordinarily the word Œprovided¹ indicates that a condition follows,
as expressed in Boston S. and D. v. Thomas, 59 Kan. 470, [53 Pac.
472], Œthere is no magic in the term, and the clause in a contract
is to be construed from the words employed and from the purpose of
the parties, gathered from the whole instrument.¹
A condition is an event, not certain to occur, which must occur,
unless its non-occurrence is excused, before performance under a
contract becomes due."
Obviously an "event" that depends on performance of a contract
cannot occur *before* performance of the contract becomes due.
This result is called an impossible condition in contract
construction and is strictly construed *against* the drafter.
You seem to be trying very hard to raise doubt about Jacobsen v.
Katzer, the case that touches on this issue most closely. But you're
offering nothing particularly strong to favor the opposite position.
You've demonstrated that it's possible to fail to create a
condition, but have advanced no compelling argument that the GPL,
specifically, fails to do so.
You seem to be trying very hard to claim the GPL creates a condition
precedent. Perhaps *you* should demonstrate where the GPL *does*
establish the criteria for forming a condition precedent.
Why should I believe that the GPL forms a condition precedent when
no one have ever demonstrated that it does so?
Because a court found that the Artistic License did, and the language
and mechanism through which the GPL grants permission to redistribute is
similar.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
RJack
2010-08-08 12:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
Post by RJack
Post by ZnU
ZnU wrote: [...]
Post by ZnU
indeed be copyright violation. He simply cited a case with
little similarity to a hypothetical GPL case, in which
conditions were not properly established.
You seem to confuse conditions to the grant of rights and
covenants in consideration of the rights granted.
"While a party that owns copyright rights is ordinarily
entitled to pursue infringement claims against any third party
who violates them, the courts have recognized that the rights
and remedies available to copyright holders change
significantly when the owner elects to give others a
nonexclusive license to use such property. In that situation,
the owner/user relationship is fundamentally different. Absent
a license, the rights of the copyright holder are governed by
statutory and common law rules applicable to such rights. With
a license, however, the terms and covenants of the license
establish the applicable rules. See Effects Associates, Inc.
v. Cohen, 908 F.2d 555, 559 (9th Cir. 1990) (in granting a
copyright license, the licensor gives up its right to sue the
licensee for infringement).
Recognizing that the existence of consensual licensing
arrangements significantly changes the applicable rules and
the expectations of the parties, federal courts have held that
a party cannot normally pursue a copyright infringement action
based upon the licensees breach of covenants in the license
agreement. As a general rule, " if the [licensees] improper
conduct constitutes a breach of a covenant undertaken by the
licensee . . . and if such covenant constitutes an enforceable
contractual obligation, then the licensor will have the cause
of action for contract," not for copyright infringement.
Graham v. James , 144 F.3d 229, 236-37 (2d Cir. 1998) quoting
3 Melville B. Nimmer& David Nimmer, Nimmer on Copyright,
10.15[A] at 10-120 (1998); see also Kolbe v. Trudel , 945 F.
Supp. 1268, 1270-71 (D. Ariz. 1996). As the Ninth Circuit
explained in Topolos v. Caldewey, 698 F.2d 991, 993 (9th Cir.
[A] case does not arise under the federal copyright laws . . .
merely because the subject matter of the action involves or
affects a copyright. "
"The choice to exact consideration in the form of compliance
with the open source requirements of disclosure and
explanation of changes..."
How on earth can "disclosure and explanation of changes" come
before (be a condition precedent) to the license grant?
As discussed by The Supreme Court of California in Diepenbrock
v. Luiz, 115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911), the term ³provided² may
or may not indicate a condition, noting that ³Œthere is no
magic in the term [³provided²], and the clause in a contract
is to be construed from the words employed and from the purpose
of the parties, gathered from the whole instrument.¹²
Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911) (quoting
Boston Safe Dep. and Trust Co. v. Thomas, 53 P. 472 (Kan. 1898)
(finding that, based on a reading of an entire provision, a
clause containing ³provided, that² was not a condition)).
³It is undoubtedly true, as claimed by appellant, that
stipulations in a contract are not construed as conditions
precedent unless that construction is made necessary by the
terms of the contract. ( Deacon v. Blodget, 111 Cal. 418, [44
Pac. 159]; Antonelle v. Lumber Co., 140 Cal. 318, [73 Pac.
966].) There are also well considered cases holding that
provided does not necessarily impose a condition. In Hartung
v. Witte, 59 Wis. 285, [18 N. W. 177], it is said: ŒBut the
words, ³upon the express condition,² as here used, or the words
³if it shall so happen² or ³provided however² and the like do
not always make a condition, and it is often a nice question
to determine whether it is a condition or a covenant and
courts always construe similar clauses in a deed as covenants
rather than as conditions, if they can reasonably do so.¹ (2
Washburn on Real Property, 4.)
³In Stanley v. Colt, 72 U.S. 119, [18 L. Ed. 502], it is
declared that ŒThe word provided though an appropriate word to
constitute a common law condition does not invariably and of
necessity do so. On the contrary, it may give way to the
intent of the party as gathered from an examination of the
whole instrument, and be taken as expressing a limitation in
trust.¹
³Similarly in Woodruff v. Woodruff, 44 N. J. Eq. 353, [16 Atl.
6, 1 L. R. A. 380], it is said: ŒWhile the words ³provided
nevertheless² and ³upon the following conditions² are
appropriate words to create a condition, they do not of
necessity create such an estate. They and similar words, will
give way when the intention of the grantor as manifested by
the whole deed, is otherwise, and they have frequently been
explained and applied as expressing simply a covenant or a
limitation in trust.¹
³Indeed, the decisions are uniform to the point that, while
ordinarily the word Œprovided¹ indicates that a condition
follows, as expressed in Boston S. and D. v. Thomas, 59 Kan.
470, [53 Pac. 472], Œthere is no magic in the term, and the
clause in a contract is to be construed from the words
employed and from the purpose of the parties, gathered from the
whole instrument.¹
A condition is an event, not certain to occur, which must
occur, unless its non-occurrence is excused, before
performance under a contract becomes due."
Obviously an "event" that depends on performance of a contract
cannot occur *before* performance of the contract becomes due.
This result is called an impossible condition in contract
construction and is strictly construed *against* the drafter.
You seem to be trying very hard to raise doubt about Jacobsen v.
Katzer, the case that touches on this issue most closely. But
you're offering nothing particularly strong to favor the
opposite position. You've demonstrated that it's possible to fail
to create a condition, but have advanced no compelling argument
that the GPL, specifically, fails to do so.
You seem to be trying very hard to claim the GPL creates a
condition precedent. Perhaps *you* should demonstrate where the
GPL *does* establish the criteria for forming a condition
precedent.
Why should I believe that the GPL forms a condition precedent when
no one have ever demonstrated that it does so?
Because a court found that the Artistic License did, and the language
and mechanism through which the GPL grants permission to redistribute
is similar.
A cow and a dog are *similar* (they're both mammals). Ever try milking a
dog?

Please, just show me the condition precedent in the GPl.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
ZnU
2010-08-08 16:07:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by ZnU
Post by RJack
Post by ZnU
ZnU wrote: [...]
Post by ZnU
indeed be copyright violation. He simply cited a case with
little similarity to a hypothetical GPL case, in which
conditions were not properly established.
You seem to confuse conditions to the grant of rights and
covenants in consideration of the rights granted.
"While a party that owns copyright rights is ordinarily
entitled to pursue infringement claims against any third party
who violates them, the courts have recognized that the rights
and remedies available to copyright holders change
significantly when the owner elects to give others a
nonexclusive license to use such property. In that situation,
the owner/user relationship is fundamentally different. Absent
a license, the rights of the copyright holder are governed by
statutory and common law rules applicable to such rights. With
a license, however, the terms and covenants of the license
establish the applicable rules. See Effects Associates, Inc.
v. Cohen, 908 F.2d 555, 559 (9th Cir. 1990) (in granting a
copyright license, the licensor gives up its right to sue the
licensee for infringement).
Recognizing that the existence of consensual licensing
arrangements significantly changes the applicable rules and
the expectations of the parties, federal courts have held that
a party cannot normally pursue a copyright infringement action
based upon the licensees breach of covenants in the license
agreement. As a general rule, " if the [licensees] improper
conduct constitutes a breach of a covenant undertaken by the
licensee . . . and if such covenant constitutes an enforceable
contractual obligation, then the licensor will have the cause
of action for contract," not for copyright infringement.
Graham v. James , 144 F.3d 229, 236-37 (2d Cir. 1998) quoting
3 Melville B. Nimmer& David Nimmer, Nimmer on Copyright,
10.15[A] at 10-120 (1998); see also Kolbe v. Trudel , 945 F.
Supp. 1268, 1270-71 (D. Ariz. 1996). As the Ninth Circuit
explained in Topolos v. Caldewey, 698 F.2d 991, 993 (9th Cir.
[A] case does not arise under the federal copyright laws . . .
merely because the subject matter of the action involves or
affects a copyright. "
"The choice to exact consideration in the form of compliance
with the open source requirements of disclosure and
explanation of changes..."
How on earth can "disclosure and explanation of changes" come
before (be a condition precedent) to the license grant?
As discussed by The Supreme Court of California in Diepenbrock
v. Luiz, 115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911), the term 3provided2 may
or may not indicate a condition, noting that 3‘there is no
magic in the term [3provided2], and the clause in a contract
is to be construed from the words employed and from the purpose
of the parties, gathered from the whole instrument.12
Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 115 P. 743, 744 (Cal. 1911) (quoting
Boston Safe Dep. and Trust Co. v. Thomas, 53 P. 472 (Kan. 1898)
(finding that, based on a reading of an entire provision, a
clause containing 3provided, that2 was not a condition)).
3It is undoubtedly true, as claimed by appellant, that
stipulations in a contract are not construed as conditions
precedent unless that construction is made necessary by the
terms of the contract. ( Deacon v. Blodget, 111 Cal. 418, [44
Pac. 159]; Antonelle v. Lumber Co., 140 Cal. 318, [73 Pac.
966].) There are also well considered cases holding that
provided does not necessarily impose a condition. In Hartung
v. Witte, 59 Wis. 285, [18 N. W. 177], it is said: ‘But the
words, 3upon the express condition,2 as here used, or the words
3if it shall so happen2 or 3provided however2 and the like do
not always make a condition, and it is often a nice question
to determine whether it is a condition or a covenant and
courts always construe similar clauses in a deed as covenants
rather than as conditions, if they can reasonably do so.1 (2
Washburn on Real Property, 4.)
3In Stanley v. Colt, 72 U.S. 119, [18 L. Ed. 502], it is
declared that ‘The word provided though an appropriate word to
constitute a common law condition does not invariably and of
necessity do so. On the contrary, it may give way to the
intent of the party as gathered from an examination of the
whole instrument, and be taken as expressing a limitation in
trust.1
3Similarly in Woodruff v. Woodruff, 44 N. J. Eq. 353, [16 Atl.
6, 1 L. R. A. 380], it is said: ‘While the words 3provided
nevertheless2 and 3upon the following conditions2 are
appropriate words to create a condition, they do not of
necessity create such an estate. They and similar words, will
give way when the intention of the grantor as manifested by
the whole deed, is otherwise, and they have frequently been
explained and applied as expressing simply a covenant or a
limitation in trust.1
3Indeed, the decisions are uniform to the point that, while
ordinarily the word ‘provided1 indicates that a condition
follows, as expressed in Boston S. and D. v. Thomas, 59 Kan.
470, [53 Pac. 472], ‘there is no magic in the term, and the
clause in a contract is to be construed from the words
employed and from the purpose of the parties, gathered from the
whole instrument.1
A condition is an event, not certain to occur, which must
occur, unless its non-occurrence is excused, before
performance under a contract becomes due."
Obviously an "event" that depends on performance of a contract
cannot occur *before* performance of the contract becomes due.
This result is called an impossible condition in contract
construction and is strictly construed *against* the drafter.
You seem to be trying very hard to raise doubt about Jacobsen v.
Katzer, the case that touches on this issue most closely. But
you're offering nothing particularly strong to favor the
opposite position. You've demonstrated that it's possible to fail
to create a condition, but have advanced no compelling argument
that the GPL, specifically, fails to do so.
You seem to be trying very hard to claim the GPL creates a
condition precedent. Perhaps *you* should demonstrate where the
GPL *does* establish the criteria for forming a condition
precedent.
Why should I believe that the GPL forms a condition precedent when
no one have ever demonstrated that it does so?
Because a court found that the Artistic License did, and the language
and mechanism through which the GPL grants permission to redistribute
is similar.
A cow and a dog are *similar* (they're both mammals). Ever try milking a
dog?
Please, just show me the condition precedent in the GPl.
From the ruling:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Artistic License states on its face that the document creates
conditions: "The intent of this document is to state the conditions
under which a Package may be copied." The Artistic License also uses the
traditional language of conditions by noting that the rights to copy,
modify, and distribute are granted "provided that" the conditions are
met. Under California contract law, "provided that" typically denotes a
condition. See, e.g., Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 159 Cal. 716 (1911)
(interpreting a real property lease reciting that when the property was
sold, "this lease shall cease and be at an end, provided that the party
of the first part shall then pay [certain compensation] to the party of
the second part"; considering the appellant's "interesting and
ingenious" argument for interpreting this language as creating a mere
covenant rather than a condition; and holding that this argument "cannot
change the fact that, attributing the usual and ordinary signification
to the language of the parties, a condition is found in the provision in
question").
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The GPL also explicitly sets out conditions, labeled as such, and uses
the "provided that" language. For instance:

"You may convey a work based on the Program, or the modifications to
produce it from the Program, in the form of source code under the terms
of section 4, provided that you also meet all of these conditions: [list
of conditions]"

In, fact the licenses are _so_ similar in the relevant respects that you
could literally do a search/replace on "Artistic License" with "GPL" in
the ruling and, with the exception of a single example given of a
provision from the Artistic License, everything else the ruling says
about the license would still be accurate.

Basically, to argue that the Jacobsen v. Katzer reasoning doesn't apply
to the GPL, you'd need to argue that there was some _additional_ factor
relevant to the GPL that somehow undermined its use of the same language
that was held to create a condition precedent in Jacobsen. What might
that factor be?
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
RJack
2010-08-09 00:05:31 UTC
Permalink
On 8/8/2010 12:07 PM, ZnU wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by ZnU
The GPL also explicitly sets out conditions, labeled as such, and
"You may convey a work based on the Program, or the modifications to
produce it from the Program, in the form of source code under the
terms of section 4, provided that you also meet all of these
conditions: [list of conditions]"
In, fact the licenses are _so_ similar in the relevant respects that
you could literally do a search/replace on "Artistic License" with
"GPL" in the ruling and, with the exception of a single example given
of a provision from the Artistic License, everything else the ruling
says about the license would still be accurate.
Basically, to argue that the Jacobsen v. Katzer reasoning doesn't
apply to the GPL, you'd need to argue that there was some
_additional_ factor relevant to the GPL that somehow undermined its
use of the same language that was held to create a condition
precedent in Jacobsen. What might that factor be?
The Artistic License is not the General Public License.

What you *will never admit to* is that the phrase "provided that" omits
the preposition "before" as in "provided that before". Section 224 of
the Restatement Second of Contracts states: "A condition is an event,
not certain to occur, which must occur, unless its non-occurrence is
excused, *before* performance under a contract becomes due." If you
don't satisfy the condition (event) *beforhand* then you get no
copyright permissions -- the license never comes into existence.

What you *wish to do* is conflate a "condition precedent" with a "scope
of use" restriction (also confusingly referred to as a "condition"
sometimes) which is a very different concept. See:

"An unlicensed *use* of the copyright is not an infringement unless it
conflicts with one of the specific exclusive rights conferred by the
copyright statute. Twentieth Century Music Corp. v. Aiken, 422 U.S., at
154-155."; SONY CORP. OF AMER. v. UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., 464 U.S.
417 (1984).

Judge Shira Scheindlin is trying the Best Buy Inc. case involving the
GPL contract.

Here is Judge Scheindlin in a previous contract case:

"n52 "Plaintiffs bring claims for "Contract Failure of Condition"
against each defendant. The Court is not familiar with this term. I
assume 'Contract Failure of Condition' is a claim for breach of a
condition precedent." Abu Dhabi Commercial Bank, et al. v. Morgan
Stanley & Co., et al., 1:2008cv07508, SDNY, (2008). -- Judge Shira A.
Scheindlin.
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/AbuDhabi.pdf

How do you think Judge Scheindlin is going to interpret the word
"condition" in the GPL's terms and conditions?

Sincerely,
RJack :)
David Kastrup
2010-08-09 06:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by ZnU
Basically, to argue that the Jacobsen v. Katzer reasoning doesn't
apply to the GPL, you'd need to argue that there was some
_additional_ factor relevant to the GPL that somehow undermined its
use of the same language that was held to create a condition
precedent in Jacobsen. What might that factor be?
The Artistic License is not the General Public License.
What you *will never admit to* is that the phrase "provided that"
omits the preposition "before" as in "provided that before".
What you will never admit to is that judges have a brain rather than a
linguistic computing circuitry which will brown out according to your
fantastic theories shoestringed together along the lines of your wishful
thinking. Legal documents are not word games.
--
David Kastrup
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-09 11:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by RJack
Post by ZnU
Basically, to argue that the Jacobsen v. Katzer reasoning doesn't
apply to the GPL, you'd need to argue that there was some
_additional_ factor relevant to the GPL that somehow undermined its
use of the same language that was held to create a condition
precedent in Jacobsen. What might that factor be?
The Artistic License is not the General Public License.
What you *will never admit to* is that the phrase "provided that"
omits the preposition "before" as in "provided that before".
What you will never admit to is that judges have a brain rather than a
linguistic computing circuitry which will brown out according to your
fantastic theories shoestringed together along the lines of your wishful
thinking. Legal documents are not word games.
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/k/docket/158.pdf

"Based on the both the allegations in the amended complaint and the
explicit language of the JMRI Project’s artistic license, the Court
finds that Plaintiff has chosen to distribute his decoder definition
files by granting the public a nonexclusive license to use, distribute
and copy the files. The nonexclusive license is subject to various
conditions, including the licensee’s proper attribution of the source of
the subject files. However, implicit in a nonexclusive license is the
promise not to sue for copyright infringement. See In re CFLC, Inc., 89
F.3d 673, 677 (9th Cir. 1996), citing De Forest Radio Telephone Co. v.
United States, 273 U.S. 236, 242 (1927) (finding that a nonexclusive
license is, in essence, a mere waiver of the right to sue the licensee
for infringement); see also Effects Associates, Inc. v. Cohen, 908 F.2d
555, 558 (9th Cir. 1990) (holding that the granting of a nonexclusive
license may be oral or by conduct and a such a license creates a waiver
of the right to sue in copyright, but not the right to sue for breach of
contract). Therefore, under this reasoning, Plaintiff may have a claim
against Defendants for breach the nonexclusive license agreement, but
perhaps not a claim sounding in copyright.

[... scope ...]

The license explicitly gives the users of the material, any member of
the public, “the right to use and distribute the [material] in a
more-orless customary fashion, plus the right to make reasonable
accommodations.” (See Suppl. Jacobsen Decl., Ex. A.) The scope of the
nonexclusive license is, therefore, intentionally broad. The condition
that the user insert a prominent notice of attribution does not limit
the scope of the license. Rather, Defendants’ alleged violation of the
conditions of the license may have constituted a breach of the
nonexclusive license, but does not create liability for copyright
infringement where it would not otherwise exist. Therefore, based on the
current record before the Court, the Court finds that Plaintiff’s claim
properly sounds in contract..."

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-09 10:55:02 UTC
Permalink
ZnU wrote:
[...]
Post by ZnU
Post by RJack
Please, just show me the condition precedent in the GPl.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Artistic License states on its face that the document creates
conditions: "The intent of this document is to state the conditions
under which a Package may be copied." The Artistic License also uses the
traditional language of conditions by noting that the rights to copy,
modify, and distribute are granted "provided that" the conditions are
met. Under California contract law, "provided that" typically denotes a
condition. See, e.g., Diepenbrock v. Luiz, 159 Cal. 716 (1911)
1. http://www.crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3:mss:15936

-------
This is not legal advice...

As an attorney spending a great deal of time on software related IP
licensing and litigation matters, I find the CAFC decision in the
Jacobsen case to be troubling. While I am sympathetic to the court's
apparent desire to validate the concept of open source licensing and
its alternative forms of consideration, I do not believe that the
court's ruling justifies a euphoric response by the open source
community.

First, the CAFC's decision is a clear repudiation of the "bare
license" theory long espoused by Mr. Moglen and his followers. The
CAFC's decision reflects the fact that open source licenses, like any
other form of software licenses, are contracts. I agree with this
aspect of the decision as it is well supported by precedent at all
levels. Neither Mr. Moglen, nor any of his followers have cited legal
precedent in support of the bare license theory. The CAFC's decision
should serve as clear notice that the bare license theory is nothing
more than Moglen's wishful thinking. The necessary implication of this
finding by the court is that open source licenses must be interpreted
in the context of applicable state law, and to an extent, the common
law of the Federal Circuit in which the open source agreement is
interpreted. (This is directly in conflict with the CAFC's willful
failure to follow state law and Ninth Circuit precedent regarding the
interpretation of restrictions as conditions precedent).

Second, the CAFC's opinion creates a great deal of uncertainty for
software licensing (whether proprietary or open source). Let's take
the GPLv3 as an example. As most peoople are aware, there are a
variety of disagreements over exactly what is required of a licensee
to comply with various provisions of the GPL. Section 2 of the GPL
appears to "condition" the rights granted under the license on the
licensee's compliance with the "conditions" stated in the license.
Under the CAFC's decision in Jacobsen, it stands to reason that a
licensee that fails to fully satisfy the "conditions" stated in the
GPLv3 would infringe the licensor's copyrights rather than merely
breaching the license. Thus, even if the licensee unintentionally
violated the terms of the GPLv3 because the meaning of the terms are
not clear, the licensee would be liabile for infringement.

Why does this matter? State courts, the federal circuit courts of
appeal and the US Supreme Court have all uniformly and routinely
interpreted license restrictions as covenants rather than conditions
precedent. In other words, the courts presume that the restrictions
are covenants rather than conditions precedent unless the agreement
clearly defines the restrictions as conditions. the CAFC's decision
wholly ignores this long held principle of law.

Most licenses, open source or proprietary, contain provisions whose
meanings are open to viable debate. In the past, parties to a
software license have largely understood that a licensee that breaches
a license agreement's terms is liable to the licensor for damages
decided under contract law. Proprietary licenses typically include
provisions which define or otherwise limit the scope of damages that
may be recovered in the event of a breach. On the other hand, a party
that is liable for infringement of a copyright is subject to
injunctive relief and damages equal to the owner's actual damages
(plus the infringer's profits not covered by the owner's actual
damages) OR statutory damages of up to $150,000 per incidence of
infringement. Any contractually agreed limitations on damages would
be irrelevant in the infringement setting.

The CAFC's Jacobsen decision unwittingly attempts to radically change
the risks of licensing software. The CAFC states that any failure to
comply with a license provision that the license even generally calls
a "condition" is an infringement rather than a breach. Thus, any
licensee that violates the "conditions" of a license, even if
unintentional, is subject to infringement damages. If the CAFC's
decision stands and is generally followed in the Circuits and state
courts, (which it should not be), every license from this point
forward will need to clearly state which, if any, restrictions are
"conditions precedent" and which restrictions are merely covenants
(all other restrictions). Moreover, the provisions that are
conditions precedent will need to be defined with a high degree of
care to minimize a licensee's risk of unintentionally infringing the
copyrights as a result of miinterpreting the provisions.

Another side note - many licesne agreement issues are brought in state
courts. Section 301(a) of the Copyright Act, however, preempts any
state court from hearing or deciding any cause of action which is
equivalent to a copyright claim. If the CAFC's position is indeed the
law of the land, then any cause of action relating to a breach of a
provision in a license agreement that merely mentions the word
"condition" (or some synonym thereof), or that could conceivably be
interpreted as a condition precedent, will need to be decided by a
federal court. Otherwise, the parties run the risk of going through a
full trial in state court only to find that the state court has no
jurisdiction to even hear the matter in the first place because the
breach in fact constitutes an infringement.

Ultimately, the only people that will benefit from this decision are
attorneys. All open source licenses will need to be modified if the
decision stands ....
-------

2. http://www.crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3:mss:15939

-------
Post by ZnU
Post by RJack
If the CAFC's position is indeed the law of the land, then
any cause of action relating to a breach of a provision in a
license agreement that merely mentions the word "condition" (or
some synonym thereof), or that could conceivably be interpreted
as a condition precedent, will need to be decided by a federal
court. Otherwise, the parties run the risk of going through a
full trial in state court only to find that the state court has
no jurisdiction to even hear the matter in the first place
because the breach in fact constitutes an infringement.
That is a technical matter that I have no opinion on.
[Marc Whipple] I am a lawyer, but this is not legal advice. Always
consult an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction and familiar with
the relevant law before making legal decisions.

I think you probably mean, "I do not consider myself able to offer
an informed opinion on this point," but the way it was phrased
sounds a little dismissive. If you didn't mean it that way, accept
my apology if I've over-read your statement.


That being said, calling this a "technical matter" is
oversimplification to a rather radical degree. As an attorney who
often walks the line between questions of Federal and State
jurisdiction it was one of my first concerns when I read a summary
of the decision this morning. The utter pre-emption of matters even
remotely concerned with the Copyright Act means that this is a
question of the utmost importance to anyone who has anything to do
with such licenses. I haven't read the full decision yet, and so
won't comment on whether the assertion the OP makes is accurate, but
if it is, he is right to be concerned. Among other things it would
mean that the enforcement of OS licenses just got, at the bare
minimum, a lot more expensive.
-------

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-09 13:25:34 UTC
Permalink
ZnU wrote:
[...]
Post by ZnU
Post by RJack
Why should I believe that the GPL forms a condition precedent when
no one have ever demonstrated that it does so?
Because a court found that the Artistic License did, and the language
and mechanism through which the GPL grants permission to redistribute is
similar.
Read also the PDF below. What do think about Appellee's arguments
against such a finding?

http://jmri.sourceforge.net/k/docket/cafc-pi-1/Appellee_brief.pdf
("More importantly, while Katzer agrees that the "conditions" to
distribution and modifications use the phraseology associated with
"condition precedent" (i.e. "provided, that") Katzer...")

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 14:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
(Mind you, there is some overreach in GPL3, in that it claims you need
to accept the license merely to _modify_ a work, even without further
redistribution. IMO this is invalid, as you'd have that right under
first sale doctrine even without accepting the license.
Not true. Permission from the copyright holder is required to
create a derivative work, even if you own a copy. For example,
you may not translate a novel into another language without
permission of the copyright holder.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-05 15:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by ZnU
(Mind you, there is some overreach in GPL3, in that it claims you need
to accept the license merely to _modify_ a work, even without further
redistribution. IMO this is invalid, as you'd have that right under
first sale doctrine even without accepting the license.
It's 17 USC 117, not 109.
Post by Hyman Rosen
Not true. Permission from the copyright holder is required to
create a derivative work, even if you own a copy. For example,
you may not translate a novel into another language without
permission of the copyright holder.
http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise27.html
(VI.D.3. Section 117 Adaptations)

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 15:37:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise27.html
(VI.D.3. Section 117 Adaptations)
Yes. That's not a "fair use" permission as the OP claimed.
In any case, the GPL says <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>
You may make, run and propagate covered works that you
do not convey, without conditions so long as your license
otherwise remains in force.
so the OP was wrong (except in the most trivial sense) that the
GPL requires anything for modification without conveyance.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-05 16:01:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise27.html
(VI.D.3. Section 117 Adaptations)
Yes. That's not a "fair use" permission as the OP claimed.
It has nothing to do with fair use, silly Hyman.

Not heeding your GNUtian "conditions" (illegal and hence void part of
contractually imposed obligations aside for a moment) is a contract
breach, not copyright infringement.

The copyright act has nothing to do with your idiotic "conditions".

The idea that the "copyleft hack" of copyright act is enforceable by
the copyright act itself is utterly moronic.

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 16:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Post by Hyman Rosen
Yes. That's not a "fair use" permission as the OP claimed.
It has nothing to do with fair use
Yes, that's what I said.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
The idea that the "copyleft hack" of copyright act is enforceable by
the copyright act itself is utterly moronic.
<http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions/08-1001.pdf>
"Having determined that the terms of the Artistic License are
enforceable copyright conditions..."

In the battle of crank vs. court, court wins. Always.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-05 16:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Post by Hyman Rosen
Yes. That's not a "fair use" permission as the OP claimed.
It has nothing to do with fair use
Yes, that's what I said.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
The idea that the "copyleft hack" of copyright act is enforceable by
the copyright act itself is utterly moronic.
<http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions/08-1001.pdf>
"Having determined that the terms of the Artistic License are
enforceable copyright conditions..."
It was explained to you many times that CAFC's opinion (authored by a
district court judge from New Jersey sitting by designation and
apparently having trouble to grasp California contract law regarding
conditions and confusing the concept of conditions with license scope
limitations and consideration in the form of compliance with licensee's
obligations) in the Jacobsen case is *non-precedential* amusing
BULLSHIT. CAFC has no authority to establish precedents in copyright
licensing matters.

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 16:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
It was explained to you many times
"Explained" would require argument, not wishful thinking.
"Explained" would require not hurling imprecations at a
judge with whom you disagree. You are "ranting".
Post by Alexander Terekhov
the Jacobsen case is *non-precedential*
Should any similar case arise, this case will be presented
as evidence of what another court found, regardless of whether
that decision is precedential in that case.
ZnU
2010-08-05 19:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise27.html
(VI.D.3. Section 117 Adaptations)
Yes. That's not a "fair use" permission as the OP claimed.
I didn't, actually.
Post by Hyman Rosen
In any case, the GPL says <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>
You may make, run and propagate covered works that you
do not convey, without conditions so long as your license
otherwise remains in force.
so the OP was wrong (except in the most trivial sense) that the
GPL requires anything for modification without conveyance.
See section 9.

"However, nothing other than this License grants you permission to
propagate or modify any covered work. These actions infringe copyright
if you do not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or
propagating a covered work, you indicate your acceptance of this License
to do so."

GPL3 _does_ claim you need to accept the license to modify the work even
without distribution, or else you're infringing on copyright. This does
not actually appear to be the case.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-05 19:39:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
See section 9.
"However, nothing other than this License grants you permission to
propagate or modify any covered work. These actions infringe copyright
if you do not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or
propagating a covered work, you indicate your acceptance of this License
to do so."
GPL3 _does_ claim you need to accept the license to modify the work even
without distribution, or else you're infringing on copyright. This does
not actually appear to be the case.
No. See section 0. <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>
To “modify” a work means to copy from or adapt all or part of the
work in a fashion requiring copyright permission, other than the
making of an exact copy. The resulting work is called a “modified
version” of the earlier work or a work “based on” the earlier work.

As a copyright license, the GPL could not possibly demand that it be
accepted in order to do something for which no permission is required,
and here it explicitly disclaims any such demands.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-08-05 21:20:30 UTC
Permalink
Hyman Rosen wrote:
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by ZnU
GPL3 _does_ claim you need to accept the license to modify the work even
without distribution, or else you're infringing on copyright. This does
not actually appear to be the case.
No. See section 0. <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>
To “modify” a work means...
Yes, yes, after redefining the meaning of the word "free" for
themselves, the two major GNUtians (Eben and Richard) felt free (in the
old sense of "free") to redefine many other words (such as "modify") and
modify (in the old sense of "modify") their meaning as well.

<chuckles>

regards,
alexander.

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
David Kastrup
2010-08-06 07:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by ZnU
GPL3 _does_ claim you need to accept the license to modify the work even
without distribution, or else you're infringing on copyright. This does
not actually appear to be the case.
No. See section 0. <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>
To “modify” a work means...
Yes, yes, after redefining the meaning of the word "free" for
themselves, the two major GNUtians (Eben and Richard) felt free (in the
old sense of "free") to redefine many other words (such as "modify") and
modify (in the old sense of "modify") their meaning as well.
You'll find that legal papers have no problems even defining terms like
"you" and "we". Not leaving things open to interpretation is rather an
advantage. It is even more important in unilaterally written papers
(like a license to multiple and unknown licensees) than with a contract
written up by lawyers of two parties. In the latter case, one can
assume more or less a common understanding being cast into words.

Defining terms means that the recipient of the license as well as the
licensor (often not the same as the author of the license) are in
agreement about what the license permits and prohibits.

Where the exact meaning of the word "modify" is relevant in laws, you'll
have corresponding explanations, commentaries and case law. But that
does not define what "modify" means in a license, or a contract. Not
even when the license does not have a definition of its own. The recent
SCO lawsuit centered about the unilateral claim that "excluded assets"
in a contract was understood by both parties to mean "included assets".

And if that could have been persuadingly shown, it would indeed have had
the consequences of that meaning. Now it is rather a challenge to prove
that words have been used contrary to their common meaning, so it is a
bad idea to implicitly or explicitly define words as something running
totally counter to their usual meaning.

But the definitions in the GPL are quite with the spirit of the words
both in lingual as well as legal contexts.
--
David Kastrup
ZnU
2010-08-06 20:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by ZnU
See section 9.
"However, nothing other than this License grants you permission to
propagate or modify any covered work. These actions infringe copyright
if you do not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or
propagating a covered work, you indicate your acceptance of this License
to do so."
GPL3 _does_ claim you need to accept the license to modify the work even
without distribution, or else you're infringing on copyright. This does
not actually appear to be the case.
No. See section 0. <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>
To ³modify² a work means to copy from or adapt all or part of the
work in a fashion requiring copyright permission, other than the
making of an exact copy. The resulting work is called a ³modified
version² of the earlier work or a work ³based on² the earlier work.
As a copyright license, the GPL could not possibly demand that it be
accepted in order to do something for which no permission is required,
and here it explicitly disclaims any such demands.
This is, at the very least, extremely squirrely, in that they're
effectively redefining the word "modify" to obfuscate the rights already
present under copyright law.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-09 15:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
This is, at the very least, extremely squirrely, in that they're
effectively redefining the word "modify" to obfuscate the rights already
present under copyright law.
This is how legal documents are written. The definitions section
isn't hidden, after all. If you choose to not read the whole GPL
but jump into the middle to read a sentence or two, it's possible
that you will be misled.

In any case, when dealing with a license, the first question is
always to determine whether a license is required at all for the
activity you wish to perform. If the answer is "no", then the
license need not be examined at all. So even if the GPL had not
qualified its definition of "modify" the result would be the same.
Hyman Rosen
2010-08-09 15:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
In any case, when dealing with a license, the first question is
always to determine whether a license is required at all for the
activity you wish to perform. If the answer is "no", then the
license need not be examined at all. So even if the GPL had not
qualified its definition of "modify" the result would be the same.
This, by the way, is why copying and distributing a program which
dynamically links to a GPLed library does not require distributing
that program under the GPL; regardless of what the FSF and the GPL
may say about dynamic linking, copying and distributing such a
program does not infringe any of the exclusive rights granted to
the holders of the copyrights on the linked-to library, and therefore
the license of the library need never be consulted when distributing
the program. (Assume for the purpose of clarity that the library is
not distributed with the program, but already exists on the platform
where the program will run.)
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