Discussion:
license v license v /license/
(too old to reply)
Alexander Terekhov
2011-01-11 19:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Nice paper:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1586580&download=yes
(Why License Agreements Do Not Control Copy Ownership: First Sales and
Essential Copies)

I especially like this part:

"When "license" is used as a noun in the copyright context, it means
something like, "a grant by the holder of a copyright to another of any
of the rights embodied in the copyright short of an assignment of all
rights" as in "The agreement contained a license to reproduce 20 copies
of the photograph."

When "license" is used as a verb it typically means "to give permission
or consent" as in "The author licensed her publication right to the
nation's largest distributor."

These uses of the word relate only to the intangible copyright.

The word "license" is also, unfortunately, used in conjunction with
tangible things. First, as a noun it is often used synonymously with the
terms "agreement" or "contract" when that underlying agreement contains
grants of copyright permissions, as in "Did she sign the license?" This
usage seems to lead to confusion less often and I will not address it
further here.

However, particularly in the software context, the word "license" is
used as a verb in yet another way that I wish to focus on. Software
distributors often say, "We only license our software. We do not sell
it." This is a difficult sentence to parse because of the layers of
ambiguity involved, but particularly from reading the cases, one comes
to understand that the intended definition is not just that described
above of "to give permission or consent" with respect to some right of
copyright, but instead is used in a way that means something more like:

to transfer to another possession of a tangible object in which a
copyrighted work is embodied, for a specified period of time or
perpetually, without transferring title to the tangible object, and
typically providing at least some copyright permission.

It would be useful to have a different term to indicate this unique use
of "license." Something like "no title to the copy license" would
perhaps convey the intended meaning, but would be exceedingly
cumbersome. For purposes of clarity in this section, when I talk about
this sense of "license" I will place the word in italics, like so:
/license/.140

Usage of the word /license/ has caused rampant confusion. Before
considering some examples of this confusion, it is worthwhile to provide
some historical context on the development of this usage of the term
/license/. The Third Circuit explained, in an opinion from 1991, that:

When these form licenses were first developed for software, it was, in
large part, to avoid the federal copyright law first sale doctrine...
[Court describes software rental companies.] The first sale doctrine,
though, stood as a substantial barrier to successful suit against these
software rental companies, even under a theory of contributory
infringement. By characterizing the original transaction between the
software producer and the software rental company as a license, rather
than a sale, and by making the license personal and non-transferable,
software producers hoped to avoid the reach of the first sale doctrine
and to establish a basis in state contract law for suing the software
rental companies directly. Questions remained, however, as to whether
the use of state contract law to avoid the first sale doctrine would be
preempted either by the federal copyright statute (statutory preemption)
or by the exclusive constitutional grant of authority over copyright
issues to the federal government (constitutional preemption).
(citations). Congress recognized the problem, and, in 1990, amended the
first sale doctrine as it applies to computer programs and
phonorecords... This amendment renders the need to characterize the
original transaction as a license largely anachronistic.141

But the usage, even if anachronistic, has persisted, in part because
software distributors wanted more than to defeat the first sale doctrine
in the case of software rental companies. Even after Congress responded
to that concern, software distributors were unwilling to give up the
/licensing/ fiction because it appeared to provide a means to other
desirable ends such as price discrimination, controlling ancillary
markets, and preventing competition in related goods.142

The merits of permitting copyright owners these additional benefits are
not my focus. I am concerned with how the ambiguous use of the word
"license" has created a land mine for courts who end up speaking
imprecisely or in the worst case scenarios, reaching erroneous
conclusions.

The Microsoft Corp. v. Software Wholesale Club, Inc. opinion provides
one example. The court wrote, "However, a party that licenses its
products rather than selling them may avoid the application of the
first-sale doctrine. See, e.g., Harmony Computers & Elecs., (the fact
that Microsoft licenses rather than sells its products likely precludes
application of the first-sale doctrine); Novell, Inc., 2000 U.S. Dist.
LEXIS 9975, at *7-18 (the first-sale defense applied, but only because
Novell sold, rather than licensed, its software product)."143

What does the phrase "licenses its products" mean here? Both "license"
and "products" could have two meanings.144 If it just means that a
license, as in a grant of permission, is provided with respect to some
right of copyright, then it has fallen into the error of ignoring 17
U.S.C. § 202, by failing to recognize the possibility of ownership of a
copy independent from ownership of the copyright, to be discussed more
fully next. But, if it instead means /license/, that is, a transfer of
possession without a transfer of title to the copy, then one has
presumed the answer to the question being asked, that is, in trying to
determine whether someone is an owner of a copy, it is not much use to
say that those who are not owners of a copy do not have the rights of
owners of a copy. We knew this at the outset. What was wanted was a
feature of the transaction that would distinguish the owners from the
non-owners, other than the label applied by the copyright holder.145"

regards,
alexander.
--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Kari Laine
2011-01-11 20:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Ok alexander,

I bite, let's discuss about the FSF. I don't know enough about it.
I know the good software they made possible. I gather I donated some
money to them back in (don't remember the year). Do you mean they stole
my money to get FAT. Or what exactly is your point of GNG Site?

I find sharing quite a many viewpoints of Mr. RMS . There are some witch
I don't. And there are some opinions he has told that have hurt the Open
Source movement - my personal opinion.

But without FSF we probably wouldn't have Linux. At least it won't be as
functional as it is today. There are billions of dollars worth of GPLed
software available to every one of us.

Tell me how I have been screwed up?

Best Regards
Kari
RJack
2011-01-11 21:11:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kari Laine
Ok alexander,
But without FSF we probably wouldn't have Linux. At least it won't
be as functional as it is today. There are billions of dollars worth
of GPLed software available to every one of us.
Uhhh... "...probably wouldn't have Linux" ?????????


When Linus decided to license Linux under the GPL in 1991,
ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/v0.99/linux-0.99.tar.Z

386BSD was already written along with complete standard C libraries and
a compiler.


"Although not released until 1992, development of 386BSD predated that
of Linux. Linus Torvalds has said that if 386BSD had been available at
the time, he probably would not have created Linux.[see n.7]"

http://gondwanaland.com/meta/history/interview.html

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Alan Mackenzie
2011-01-11 22:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by Kari Laine
Ok alexander,
But without FSF we probably wouldn't have Linux. At least it won't
be as functional as it is today. There are billions of dollars worth
of GPLed software available to every one of us.
Uhhh... "...probably wouldn't have Linux" ?????????
When Linus decided to license Linux under the GPL in 1991,
ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/v0.99/linux-0.99.tar.Z
386BSD was already written along with complete standard C libraries and
a compiler.
Why do you think it is that BSD Unix has not held its own in competition
with GNU/Linux?
Post by RJack
"Although not released until 1992, development of 386BSD predated that
of Linux. Linus Torvalds has said that if 386BSD had been available at
the time, he probably would not have created Linux.[see n.7]"
http://gondwanaland.com/meta/history/interview.html
Sincerely,
RJack :)
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
RJack
2011-01-12 14:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Why do you think it is that BSD Unix has not held its own in
competition with GNU/Linux?
One acronym: IBM.

IBM could not successfully compete with Windows NT with their AIX
line running on the WinTel PC. Microsoft had screwed over IBM and their
OS/2. IBM jumped on the Linux bandwagon big time during the SCO debacle
with RCU, JFS, NUMA etc... This stimulated peripheral driver development
for PC hardware. The GPL was good at suppressing new commercial
competition which pleased both IBM and Microsoft. Apple, for example,
went proprietary with the freedom provided by BSD contributions in XNU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU
Look at Apple now:

And. . . Boom: Apple Worth More Than Microsoft.
http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20100526/apple-worth-more-than-microsoft/


Sincerely,
RJack :)

Capitalism Always Wins !
David Kastrup
2011-01-12 15:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Why do you think it is that BSD Unix has not held its own in
competition with GNU/Linux?
One acronym: IBM.
IBM could not successfully compete with Windows NT with their AIX
line running on the WinTel PC. Microsoft had screwed over IBM and their
OS/2. IBM jumped on the Linux bandwagon big time during the SCO debacle
with RCU, JFS, NUMA etc... This stimulated peripheral driver development
for PC hardware. The GPL was good at suppressing new commercial
competition which pleased both IBM and Microsoft.
So the GPL _did_ please commercial developers, to the degree where IBM
chose to "jump on the Linux bandwagon". As far as I can tell, the
points you mention (RCU, JFS, NUMA etc) concern just the Linux kernel
and not the GNU userland. So it is really the (GPLed) Linux kernel and
not the GNU project that is the focus of IBM according to you. How does
this jibe with the GPL supposedly scaring commercial developers?
Post by RJack
Apple, for example, went proprietary with the freedom provided by BSD
contributions in XNU. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU Look at Apple
And. . . Boom: Apple Worth More Than Microsoft.
http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20100526/apple-worth-more-than-microsoft/
Uh, Microsoft is not really somebody promoting GNU or GPLed software.
Apple is earning most of its income via gadgets with embedded operating
systems (certainly not via MacOS).

And IBM is doing better than ever.
Post by RJack
Capitalism Always Wins !
A loaded gun also always wins.
--
David Kastrup
JEDIDIAH
2011-01-12 21:34:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by RJack
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Why do you think it is that BSD Unix has not held its own in
competition with GNU/Linux?
One acronym: IBM.
IBM could not successfully compete with Windows NT with their AIX
line running on the WinTel PC. Microsoft had screwed over IBM and their
OS/2. IBM jumped on the Linux bandwagon big time during the SCO debacle
with RCU, JFS, NUMA etc... This stimulated peripheral driver development
for PC hardware. The GPL was good at suppressing new commercial
competition which pleased both IBM and Microsoft.
So the GPL _did_ please commercial developers, to the degree where IBM
The GPL is a great equalizer. A large company can appreciate this
as much as some guy in his basement. IBM rightfully realizes that the
efforts they put into Free Software can't be used against them in a
way they cannot exploit themselves.

[deletia]
Post by David Kastrup
Post by RJack
Apple, for example, went proprietary with the freedom provided by BSD
contributions in XNU. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU Look at Apple
BSD is not the Apple interface. Their variant of OpenStep is. So talking
about how their kernel is libre or how the userland that no user ever sees
is libre is a bit meaningless.

No one at Apple tries to sell Macs or iPhones based on the fact that you
can create shell scripts to get over the limitations of the built in PhoneOS
SMS app.

Infact, this situation is a great example of why a company like IBM might
be loathe to contribute to something like FreeBSD. A company like Apple can
come along afterwards and use it to the detriment of IBM. IBM could basically
end up giving free labor to the enemy.

[deletia]
--
If it were really about "being good", then Microsoft would |||
have been put out of business by Apple before the first line of / | \
the Linux kernel was ever written.
Alan Mackenzie
2011-01-12 21:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Why do you think it is that BSD Unix has not held its own in
competition with GNU/Linux?
One acronym: IBM.
IBM could not successfully compete with Windows NT with their AIX line
running on the WinTel PC. Microsoft had screwed over IBM and their
OS/2. IBM jumped on the Linux bandwagon big time during the SCO debacle
with RCU, JFS, NUMA etc... This stimulated peripheral driver
development for PC hardware.
Linux was steadily growing then even without IBM. I suspect RedHat and
SuSE were more important than IBM. Why was Linux growing then, but not
BSD?
Post by RJack
The GPL was good at suppressing new commercial competition which
pleased both IBM and Microsoft.
And Richard Stallman, of course. I suspect that it was MS rather than
the GPL which suppressed OS competition, as you note above.
Post by RJack
Apple, for example, went proprietary with the freedom provided by BSD
contributions in XNU. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU Look at Apple
A niche player in computers, and highly successful with iPods, iPhones
and the like.
Post by RJack
And. . . Boom: Apple Worth More Than Microsoft.
http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20100526/apple-worth-more-than-microsoft/
Sincerely,
RJack :)
Capitalism Always Wins !
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
RJack
2011-01-13 00:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Apple, for example, went proprietary with the freedom provided by
BSD contributions in XNU. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU
Look at Apple now: A niche player in computers, and highly
successful with iPods, iPhones and the like.
We tend to minimize that with which we disagree.

"iOS is derived from Mac OS X, with which it shares the Darwin
foundation, and is therefore a Unix-like operating system by nature."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_%28Apple%29

And. . . Boom: Apple Worth More Than Microsoft.
http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20100526/apple-worth-more-than->microsoft/

Sincerely,
RJack :)

Capitalism Triumphs!

David Kastrup
2011-01-11 22:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kari Laine
Ok alexander,
I bite, let's discuss about the FSF. I don't know enough about it.
I know the good software they made possible. I gather I donated some
money to them back in (don't remember the year). Do you mean they stole
my money to get FAT. Or what exactly is your point of GNG Site?
I find sharing quite a many viewpoints of Mr. RMS . There are some witch
I don't. And there are some opinions he has told that have hurt the Open
Source movement - my personal opinion.
But without FSF we probably wouldn't have Linux. At least it won't be
as functional as it is today.
Hm? Linux is just a kernel. Granted, it has a compilation dependency
on GCC, but other than that, its development has been largely
independent of the FSF. But it's not really much fun if you try not
running any GNU software on it.

I've seen some server that has been built in that manner: Linux, but a
BSD userland above it. Shows that Linux works without GNU just fine.

But not my idea of the best I can get.
--
David Kastrup
owl
2011-01-11 20:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1586580&download=yes
(Why License Agreements Do Not Control Copy Ownership: First Sales and
Essential Copies)
"When "license" is used as a noun in the copyright context, it means
something like, "a grant by the holder of a copyright to another of any
of the rights embodied in the copyright short of an assignment of all
rights" as in "The agreement contained a license to reproduce 20 copies
of the photograph."
When "license" is used as a verb it typically means "to give permission
or consent" as in "The author licensed her publication right to the
nation's largest distributor."
These uses of the word relate only to the intangible copyright.
The word "license" is also, unfortunately, used in conjunction with
tangible things. First, as a noun it is often used synonymously with the
terms "agreement" or "contract" when that underlying agreement contains
grants of copyright permissions, as in "Did she sign the license?" This
usage seems to lead to confusion less often and I will not address it
further here.
However, particularly in the software context, the word "license" is
used as a verb in yet another way that I wish to focus on. Software
distributors often say, "We only license our software. We do not sell
it." This is a difficult sentence to parse because of the layers of
ambiguity involved, but particularly from reading the cases, one comes
to understand that the intended definition is not just that described
above of "to give permission or consent" with respect to some right of
to transfer to another possession of a tangible object in which a
copyrighted work is embodied, for a specified period of time or
perpetually, without transferring title to the tangible object, and
typically providing at least some copyright permission.
It would be useful to have a different term to indicate this unique use
of "license." Something like "no title to the copy license" would
perhaps convey the intended meaning, but would be exceedingly
cumbersome. For purposes of clarity in this section, when I talk about
/license/.140
Usage of the word /license/ has caused rampant confusion. Before
considering some examples of this confusion, it is worthwhile to provide
some historical context on the development of this usage of the term
When these form licenses were first developed for software, it was, in
large part, to avoid the federal copyright law first sale doctrine...
[Court describes software rental companies.] The first sale doctrine,
though, stood as a substantial barrier to successful suit against these
software rental companies, even under a theory of contributory
infringement. By characterizing the original transaction between the
software producer and the software rental company as a license, rather
than a sale, and by making the license personal and non-transferable,
software producers hoped to avoid the reach of the first sale doctrine
and to establish a basis in state contract law for suing the software
rental companies directly. Questions remained, however, as to whether
the use of state contract law to avoid the first sale doctrine would be
preempted either by the federal copyright statute (statutory preemption)
or by the exclusive constitutional grant of authority over copyright
issues to the federal government (constitutional preemption).
(citations). Congress recognized the problem, and, in 1990, amended the
first sale doctrine as it applies to computer programs and
phonorecords... This amendment renders the need to characterize the
original transaction as a license largely anachronistic.141
But the usage, even if anachronistic, has persisted, in part because
software distributors wanted more than to defeat the first sale doctrine
in the case of software rental companies. Even after Congress responded
to that concern, software distributors were unwilling to give up the
/licensing/ fiction because it appeared to provide a means to other
desirable ends such as price discrimination, controlling ancillary
markets, and preventing competition in related goods.142
The merits of permitting copyright owners these additional benefits are
not my focus. I am concerned with how the ambiguous use of the word
"license" has created a land mine for courts who end up speaking
imprecisely or in the worst case scenarios, reaching erroneous
conclusions.
The Microsoft Corp. v. Software Wholesale Club, Inc. opinion provides
one example. The court wrote, "However, a party that licenses its
products rather than selling them may avoid the application of the
first-sale doctrine. See, e.g., Harmony Computers & Elecs., (the fact
that Microsoft licenses rather than sells its products likely precludes
application of the first-sale doctrine); Novell, Inc., 2000 U.S. Dist.
LEXIS 9975, at *7-18 (the first-sale defense applied, but only because
Novell sold, rather than licensed, its software product)."143
What does the phrase "licenses its products" mean here? Both "license"
and "products" could have two meanings.144 If it just means that a
license, as in a grant of permission, is provided with respect to some
right of copyright, then it has fallen into the error of ignoring 17
U.S.C. § 202, by failing to recognize the possibility of ownership of a
copy independent from ownership of the copyright, to be discussed more
fully next. But, if it instead means /license/, that is, a transfer of
possession without a transfer of title to the copy, then one has
presumed the answer to the question being asked, that is, in trying to
determine whether someone is an owner of a copy, it is not much use to
say that those who are not owners of a copy do not have the rights of
owners of a copy. We knew this at the outset. What was wanted was a
feature of the transaction that would distinguish the owners from the
non-owners, other than the label applied by the copyright holder.145"
regards,
alexander.
Q. What would happen if doctors and lawyers worked for minimum wage?
A. Doctors would still get laid.
RJack
2011-01-11 21:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by owl
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1586580&download=yes
(Why License Agreements Do Not Control Copy Ownership: First Sales and
Post by owl
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Essential Copies)
"When "license" is used as a noun in the copyright context, it
means something like, "a grant by the holder of a copyright to
another of any of the rights embodied in the copyright short of an
assignment of all rights" as in "The agreement contained a license
to reproduce 20 copies of the photograph."
When "license" is used as a verb it typically means "to give
permission or consent" as in "The author licensed her publication
right to the nation's largest distributor."
These uses of the word relate only to the intangible copyright.
The word "license" is also, unfortunately, used in conjunction
with tangible things. First, as a noun it is often used
synonymously with the terms "agreement" or "contract" when that
underlying agreement contains grants of copyright permissions, as
in "Did she sign the license?" This usage seems to lead to
confusion less often and I will not address it further here.
However, particularly in the software context, the word "license"
is used as a verb in yet another way that I wish to focus on.
Software distributors often say, "We only license our software. We
do not sell it." This is a difficult sentence to parse because of
the layers of ambiguity involved, but particularly from reading the
cases, one comes to understand that the intended definition is not
just that described above of "to give permission or consent" with
respect to some right of copyright, but instead is used in a way
to transfer to another possession of a tangible object in which a
copyrighted work is embodied, for a specified period of time or
perpetually, without transferring title to the tangible object,
and typically providing at least some copyright permission.
It would be useful to have a different term to indicate this unique
use of "license." Something like "no title to the copy license"
would perhaps convey the intended meaning, but would be
exceedingly cumbersome. For purposes of clarity in this section,
when I talk about this sense of "license" I will place the word in
italics, like so: /license/.140
Usage of the word /license/ has caused rampant confusion. Before
considering some examples of this confusion, it is worthwhile to
provide some historical context on the development of this usage of
the term /license/. The Third Circuit explained, in an opinion from
When these form licenses were first developed for software, it was,
in large part, to avoid the federal copyright law first sale
doctrine... [Court describes software rental companies.] The first
sale doctrine, though, stood as a substantial barrier to successful
suit against these software rental companies, even under a theory
of contributory infringement. By characterizing the original
transaction between the software producer and the software rental
company as a license, rather than a sale, and by making the license
personal and non-transferable, software producers hoped to avoid
the reach of the first sale doctrine and to establish a basis in
state contract law for suing the software rental companies
directly. Questions remained, however, as to whether the use of
state contract law to avoid the first sale doctrine would be
preempted either by the federal copyright statute (statutory
preemption) or by the exclusive constitutional grant of authority
over copyright issues to the federal government (constitutional
preemption). (citations). Congress recognized the problem, and, in
1990, amended the first sale doctrine as it applies to computer
programs and phonorecords... This amendment renders the need to
characterize the original transaction as a license largely
anachronistic.141
But the usage, even if anachronistic, has persisted, in part
because software distributors wanted more than to defeat the first
sale doctrine in the case of software rental companies. Even after
Congress responded to that concern, software distributors were
unwilling to give up the /licensing/ fiction because it appeared to
provide a means to other desirable ends such as price
discrimination, controlling ancillary markets, and preventing
competition in related goods.142
The merits of permitting copyright owners these additional benefits
are not my focus. I am concerned with how the ambiguous use of the
word "license" has created a land mine for courts who end up
speaking imprecisely or in the worst case scenarios, reaching
erroneous conclusions.
The Microsoft Corp. v. Software Wholesale Club, Inc. opinion
provides one example. The court wrote, "However, a party that
licenses its products rather than selling them may avoid the
application of the first-sale doctrine. See, e.g., Harmony
Computers& Elecs., (the fact that Microsoft licenses rather than
sells its products likely precludes application of the first-sale
doctrine); Novell, Inc., 2000 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 9975, at *7-18 (the
first-sale defense applied, but only because Novell sold, rather
than licensed, its software product)."143
What does the phrase "licenses its products" mean here? Both
"license" and "products" could have two meanings.144 If it just
means that a license, as in a grant of permission, is provided with
respect to some right of copyright, then it has fallen into the
error of ignoring 17 U.S.C. § 202, by failing to recognize the
possibility of ownership of a copy independent from ownership of
the copyright, to be discussed more fully next. But, if it instead
means /license/, that is, a transfer of possession without a
transfer of title to the copy, then one has presumed the answer to
the question being asked, that is, in trying to determine whether
someone is an owner of a copy, it is not much use to say that those
who are not owners of a copy do not have the rights of owners of a
copy. We knew this at the outset. What was wanted was a feature of
the transaction that would distinguish the owners from the
non-owners, other than the label applied by the copyright
holder.145"
regards, alexander.
Q. What would happen if doctors and lawyers worked for minimum wage?
A. Doctors would still get laid.
And some FSF lawyers would still fuck you with great predictability.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
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