Discussion:
Justice draws nigh
(too old to reply)
RJack
2010-05-05 18:45:41 UTC
Permalink
All this bantering about prior cases is moot.

The SFLC has just filed a request for a pre-conference motion for
summary judgment against Westinghouse. The near future now holds all the
answers about GPL enforcement. I'm sure Judge Scheindlin will suffers no
fools in this action.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
RJack
2010-05-05 18:59:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
All this bantering about prior cases is moot.
The SFLC has just filed a request for a pre-conference motion for
summary judgment against Westinghouse. The near future now holds all the
answers about GPL enforcement. I'm sure Judge Scheindlin will suffers no
fools in this action.
Seems Westinghouse has undergone an assignment for the benefit of
creditors in California.

http://bankruptcy.cooley.com/2008/03/articles/the-financially-troubled-compa/assignments-for-the-benefit-of-creditors-simple-as-abc/

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-05 19:31:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by RJack
All this bantering about prior cases is moot.
The SFLC has just filed a request for a pre-conference motion for
summary judgment against Westinghouse. The near future now holds all the
answers about GPL enforcement. I'm sure Judge Scheindlin will suffers no
fools in this action.
Seems Westinghouse has undergone an assignment for the benefit of
creditors in California.
http://bankruptcy.cooley.com/2008/03/articles/the-financially-troubled-compa/assignments-for-the-benefit-of-creditors-simple-as-abc/
SFLC rats footnoted it:

"On April 27, Plaintiffs attempted to confer with counsel for
Westinghouse regarding the discovery request, but were told that
Westinghouse has undergone an assignment for the benefit of creditors in
California and is unlikely to continue to defend itself in this matter"

"is unlikely to continue to defend itself in this matter"

"is unlikely to continue to defend itself in this matter"

So when the defendant told SFLC rats that the defendant is "unlikely to
continue to defend itself in this matter" SFLC rats "contemplate" two
motions:

"Plaintiffs in this action for copyright infringement write to request a
pre-motion conference in contemplation of two motions against defendant
Westinghouse Digital Electronics, LLC ("Westinghouse"), The first
contemplated motion is for summary judgment of infringement and an award
of appropriate remedies. The second contemplated motion is to compel
discovery. Plaintiffs propose a single pre-motion conference be held
during the week of May 17, or otherwise at the Court's earliest
convenience."

LOL!

SFLC rats "contemplate" two motions...

http://www.terekhov.de/BestBuy-108.pdf

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
amicus_curious
2010-05-08 17:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Post by RJack
Post by RJack
All this bantering about prior cases is moot.
The SFLC has just filed a request for a pre-conference motion for
summary judgment against Westinghouse. The near future now holds all the
answers about GPL enforcement. I'm sure Judge Scheindlin will suffers no
fools in this action.
Seems Westinghouse has undergone an assignment for the benefit of
creditors in California.
http://bankruptcy.cooley.com/2008/03/articles/the-financially-troubled-compa/assignments-for-the-benefit-of-creditors-simple-as-abc/
"On April 27, Plaintiffs attempted to confer with counsel for
Westinghouse regarding the discovery request, but were told that
Westinghouse has undergone an assignment for the benefit of creditors in
California and is unlikely to continue to defend itself in this matter"
"is unlikely to continue to defend itself in this matter"
"is unlikely to continue to defend itself in this matter"
So when the defendant told SFLC rats that the defendant is "unlikely to
continue to defend itself in this matter" SFLC rats "contemplate" two
"Plaintiffs in this action for copyright infringement write to request a
pre-motion conference in contemplation of two motions against defendant
Westinghouse Digital Electronics, LLC ("Westinghouse"), The first
contemplated motion is for summary judgment of infringement and an award
of appropriate remedies. The second contemplated motion is to compel
discovery. Plaintiffs propose a single pre-motion conference be held
during the week of May 17, or otherwise at the Court's earliest
convenience."
LOL!
SFLC rats "contemplate" two motions...
"File for show, settle for dough" is unlikely to work here.
Chris Ahlstrom
2010-05-08 20:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by amicus_curious
...rats...
LOL!
"File for show, settle for dough" is unlikely to work here.
Look at all the rats (myself excepted, of course) infesting this thread!
--
Long life is in store for you.
RJack
2010-05-09 16:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by amicus_curious
"File for show, settle for dough" is unlikely to work here.
It is instructive to examine what the plaintiffs filed in their
"contemplated motion for summary judgment":

"Plaintiffs own valid copyrights in BusyBox. Plaintiff Erik Andersen is
a computer programmer and beginning in 2002 he wrote and then submitted
code for inclusion into the BusyBox project. Mr. Andersen is the
copyright owner in his contributions to BusyBox and he registered his
copyright in 2008. See, "BusyBox,v.0.60.3.", Copyright Reg. No.
TX0006869051 (10/2/2008)."

*** 1) "Plaintiffs own valid copyrights in BusyBox".


The plaintiffs are "SOFTWARE FREEDOM CONSERVANCY, INC." and Erik
Andersen". Unless the SFLC can demonstrate that the SOFTWARE FREEDOM
CONSERVANCY, INC. owns code in the BusyBox project, the claim is a FALSE
statement.

Please note Second Circuit law:

"[T]he Copyright Law is quite specific in stating that only the "owner
of an exclusive right under a copyright" may bring suit"; Eden Toys Inc
v. Florelee Undergarment Co Inc, 697 F.2d 27 (2nd Cir 1983).


*** 2) "Plaintiff Erik Andersen is a computer programmer and beginning
in 2002 he wrote and then submitted code for inclusion into the BusyBox
project. Mr. Andersen is the copyright owner in his contributions to
BusyBox and he registered his copyright in 2008."


A derivative work has a *unique* owner if and only if the preexisting
author and the contributing author are the same legal entity because of
17 USC § 103(b):

"§ 103 · Subject matter of copyright: Compilations and derivative works.

(b) The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to
the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished
from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply
any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such
work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope,
duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the
preexisting material."

A derivative work that is authorized by a *preexisting* author and a
distinct "modifying author" has no unique *owner* unless a transfer of
ownership by contract of the distinct parts to a unique entity has been
effected (absent a work for hire relationship).

Mr. Andersen clearly does not own BusyBox by his own admission. He owns
exclusive rights in *his* modifying code but unless he can show
ownership of BusyBox as a derivative work, he cannot claim any exclusive
right in the derivative work identified as "BusyBox v.0.60.3". Mr.
Andersen has no legal right to REGISTER a work in which he holds no
exclusive rights.

"When an original author and an author of a derivative work are
different, their respective rights are generally addressed by a contract
between them.[24] In these situations, it is clear that two works have
been created, requiring separate copyright registrations to preserve
those rights in court."
http://www.oblon.com/media/index.php?id=41#_ednref24

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-12 11:41:54 UTC
Permalink
SFLC stipulated dismissal of Sumsung, as usual without any settlement.

Oh mighty, mighty GPL.

"05/11/2010 109 STIPULATION OF DISMISSAL of action as against Samsung
Electronics America, WITHOUT PREJUDICE, and without costs to any party.
"

<chuckles>

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 13:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
SFLC stipulated dismissal of Sumsung, as usual without any settlement.
Here is the manual for the Insignia NS-WBRDVD player,
<http://www.insigniaproducts.com/cms/documents/NS-WBRDVD%20UM%20EN%20V4.pdf>
I draw your attention to page 24 (page 28 of the pdf):
PUBLIC LICENSE
This product contains software that is subject to the GNU Public
License Version 2 (GPL2). You can obtain a copy of the GPL
License from
http://www/gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.html.

If you require additional information or you wish to receive
source code, please call the Insignia support line at
1-877-467-4289. The source code is available for a period of
three (3) years from the date of the distribution of this product
by Insignia.

GNU PUBLIC LICENSE
The BD player runs software that is covered under the GPL. As
such, we are required to publish the following:

There follows the complete GPLv2.

So as ever and always, once the suit brought by the SFLC concludes,
the defendants make the software properly available under the GPL.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-12 14:38:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
SFLC stipulated dismissal of Sumsung, as usual without any settlement.
Here is the manual for the Insignia NS-WBRDVD player,
<http://www.insigniaproducts.com/...
http://www.insigniaproducts.com/termsofuse.html

"10. Owner and Operator of the Insignia Products Web site

10.1 Best Buy Stores, LP is the owner and operator of the Insignia
Products Web site."

not Samsung, you idiot.

You must have meant

http://www.samsung.com/global/opensource

but did you check the source code for its "completeness" in the GNU
sense, you retard?

Oh mighty, mighty GPL.

"05/11/2010 109 STIPULATION OF DISMISSAL of action as against Samsung
Electronics America, WITHOUT PREJUDICE, and without costs to any party.
"

<chuckles>

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 14:41:48 UTC
Permalink
You must have meant http://www.samsung.com/global/opensource
Oh, right. I guess we'll be seeing the Best Buy dismissal soon too.
(I'm sensitized because I just bought an Insignia player.)
but did you check the source code for its "completeness" in the GNU
sense
No. The SFLC's satisfaction with their compliance is enough for me.

I do have an e-mail in to Insignia asking for the source code
(the customer service people said I should e-mail) and I'll see
what happens with respect to that.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-12 14:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
You must have meant http://www.samsung.com/global/opensource
Oh, right. I guess we'll be seeing the Best Buy dismissal soon too.
LMAO!

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-12 14:49:31 UTC
Permalink
Hyman Rosen wrote:
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
Here is the manual for the Insignia NS-WBRDVD player,
<http://www.insigniaproducts.com/cms/documents/NS-WBRDVD%20UM%20EN%20V4.pdf>
That .pdf was

"Created: 25.01.2010 12:10:58"

and

"Modified: 25.01.2010 12:19:51"

The questions is:

Why the heck the SFLC is still suing the Best Buy <whatever> LLC, you
moron Hyman?

(I gather that

"please call the Insignia support line at 1-877-467-4289"

is a sign of perfect compliance to the GPL in your moronic mind.)

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 15:12:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
"Modified: 25.01.2010 12:19:51"
Why the heck the SFLC is still suing the Best Buy<whatever>
Because it takes time to work through legal arrangements.
Or perhaps the SFLC is verifying that the offer in the manual
is genuine.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
(I gather that
"please call the Insignia support line at 1-877-467-4289"
is a sign of perfect compliance to the GPL
As long as making such a call leads to obtaining the code,
then yes, of course.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-12 15:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
"Modified: 25.01.2010 12:19:51"
Why the heck the SFLC is still suing the Best Buy<whatever>
Because it takes time to work through legal arrangements.
Or perhaps the SFLC is verifying that the offer in the manual
is genuine.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
(I gather that
"please call the Insignia support line at 1-877-467-4289"
is a sign of perfect compliance to the GPL
As long as making such a call leads to obtaining the code,
then yes, of course.
<chuckles>

http://opensource.actiontec.com/mi1424wr/actiontec_opensrc_mi424wr-rev-e_fw-20-9-0.tgz

"Not found"

Stupid Hyman.

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 15:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://opensource.actiontec.com/mi1424wr/actiontec_opensrc_mi424wr-rev-e_fw-20-9-0.tgz
"Not found"
Have you tried writing to them about this?
Perhaps they're unaware of the problem.
RJack
2010-05-12 15:34:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://opensource.actiontec.com/mi1424wr/actiontec_opensrc_mi424wr-rev-e_fw-20-9-0.tgz
"Not found"
Have you tried writing to them about this? Perhaps they're unaware of
the problem.
You're the GPL worshipper. Why don't *you* write 'em?

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 15:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://opensource.actiontec.com/mi1424wr/actiontec_opensrc_mi424wr-rev-e_fw-20-9-0.tgz
"Not found"
Have you tried writing to them about this? Perhaps they're unaware of
the problem.
You're the GPL worshipper. Why don't *you* write 'em?
OK, I have.
RJack
2010-05-12 16:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by RJack
Post by Alexander Terekhov
http://opensource.actiontec.com/mi1424wr/actiontec_opensrc_mi424wr-rev-e_fw-20-9-0.tgz
"Not found"
Have you tried writing to them about this? Perhaps they're
unaware of the problem.
You're the GPL worshipper. Why don't *you* write 'em?
OK, I have.
By all means, please post the self serving fictitious reply.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 16:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
By all means, please post the self serving fictitious reply.
I won't since the reply was a private e-mail to me. But you will
undoubtedly be displeased to know that the 'MI424WR - FW: 20.10.7'
link on http://opensource.actiontec.com/ is once again correctly
supplying a source code file.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-12 18:39:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by RJack
By all means, please post the self serving fictitious reply.
I won't since the reply was a private e-mail to me. But you will
undoubtedly be displeased to know that the 'MI424WR - FW: 20.10.7'
link on http://opensource.actiontec.com/ is once again correctly
supplying a source code file.
Did you check the source code for its "completeness" in the GNU
sense, you retard?

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 18:44:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Did you check the source code for its "completeness"
No. Similarly, when I purchase a book in a book store
I do not verify that the publisher has the legal right
to produce the book, and when I go see a movie I do not
verify that the theater has obtained a legal print.

If the copyright holders do not believe that the GPL is
being properly obeyed, it falls to them to investigate
and take action. Otherwise, the implication is that the
provided source code represents the required compliance.

Anti-GPL cranks would prefer vocal non-compliance, and
absent that must fall back to pathetic "verification"
"questions".
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-12 19:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Did you check the source code for its "completeness"
No. Similarly, when I purchase a book in a book store
I do not verify that the publisher has the legal right
Source code != "legal right" you silly.

These are two completely unsimilarly, different things idiot Human.

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 19:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Source code != "legal right"
One has the legal right to copy and distribute GPL-covered works
only by complying with the GPL. Making the source code available
is how the legal right to copy and distribute GPL-covered works
is obtained.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-12 19:23:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Source code != "legal right"
One has the legal right to copy and distribute GPL-covered works
only by complying with the GPL.
Sez who?
Post by Hyman Rosen
Making the source code available
is how the legal right to copy and distribute GPL-covered works
is obtained.
Aren't you are confusing alleged cause and effect stupid Hyman?

LOL!

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 19:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Post by Hyman Rosen
One has the legal right to copy and distribute GPL-covered works
only by complying with the GPL.
Sez who?
US copyright law, which grants the rights holders exclusivity
in how and whom they allow to copy and distribute copyrighted
works.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Post by Hyman Rosen
Making the source code available
is how the legal right to copy and distribute GPL-covered works
is obtained.
Aren't you are confusing alleged cause and effect?
No.
RJack
2010-05-12 20:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by RJack
By all means, please post the self serving fictitious reply.
I won't since the reply was a private e-mail to me. But you will
undoubtedly be displeased to know that the 'MI424WR - FW: 20.10.7'
link on http://opensource.actiontec.com/ is once again correctly
supplying a source code file.
Did you check the source code for its "completeness" in the GNU
sense, you retard?
regards, alexander.
P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds
the originality standards required by copyright law."
P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."
-- http://gng.z505.com/index.htm (GNG is a derecursive recursive
derecursion which pwns GNU since it can be infinitely looped as
GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards too, whereas GNU
cannot.)
There is no link to "BusyBox v.0.60.3" as claimed in the lawsuit.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 20:17:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
There is no link to "BusyBox v.0.60.3" as claimed in the lawsuit.
Of course not, since the GPL requires that the source
code match the distributed binary. The version mentioned
in the lawsuit is one registered by Erik Anderson, but it
is not the version distributed by the defendants.
RJack
2010-05-12 20:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
There is no link to "BusyBox v.0.60.3" as claimed in the lawsuit.
Of course not, since the GPL requires that the source code match the
distributed binary. The version mentioned in the lawsuit is one
registered by Erik Anderson, but it is not the version distributed by
the defendants.
Ahhhh... a frank admission of noinfringement.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
David Kastrup
2010-05-12 20:49:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by RJack
There is no link to "BusyBox v.0.60.3" as claimed in the lawsuit.
Of course not, since the GPL requires that the source code match the
distributed binary. The version mentioned in the lawsuit is one
registered by Erik Anderson, but it is not the version distributed by
the defendants.
Ahhhh... a frank admission of noinfringement.
Hyman is not a party to the case, and "no infringement" anyhow would
mean that no identifiable parts of the registered version can be found
in the contested code.

Otherwise, any change of the code by the redistributor would make the
result a "noinfringement" since the result of the modification is no
longer identical with the registered version.

Of course, you already read that, and unless you are a complete moron,
also understood it. But you need not be a moron to troll.
--
David Kastrup
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 20:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Ahhhh... a frank admission of noinfringement.
Copying and distribution of GPL-covered works without
following the requirements of the GPL is infringement
of the copyrights of the rights holders. Even assuming
the lawsuit is faulty for not having the correct version
registered, copyright infringement is occurring regardless.
RJack
2010-05-12 21:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by RJack
Ahhhh... a frank admission of noinfringement.
Copying and distribution of GPL-covered works without
following the requirements of the GPL is infringement
of the copyrights of the rights holders. Even assuming
the lawsuit is faulty for not having the correct version
registered, copyright infringement is occurring regardless.
Sez who?

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 21:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Sez who?
US copyright law.
Alan Mackenzie
2010-05-13 08:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Ahhhh... a frank admission of noinfringement.
Copying and distribution of GPL-covered works without following the
requirements of the GPL is infringement of the copyrights of the rights
holders. Even assuming the lawsuit is faulty for not having the correct
version registered, copyright infringement is occurring regardless.
How can the plaintiff even know which version of Busybox has been
distributed? It is likely that the defendants have customised Busybox to
their own requirements, hence what they distribute won't match ANY
properly released version. It's thus silly to expect the plaintiffs to
specify the exact version, and US law is surely not _that_ silly.
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
RJack
2010-05-13 10:04:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by RJack
Ahhhh... a frank admission of noinfringement.
Copying and distribution of GPL-covered works without following the
requirements of the GPL is infringement of the copyrights of the
rights holders. Even assuming the lawsuit is faulty for not having
the correct version registered, copyright infringement is occurring
regardless.
How can the plaintiff even know which version of Busybox has been
distributed? It is likely that the defendants have customised
Busybox to their own requirements, hence what they distribute won't
match ANY properly released version. It's thus silly to expect the
plaintiffs to specify the exact version, and US law is surely not
_that_ silly.
So... do you propose charging a defendant with copyright infringement of
unidentified code? People scream bloody murder when Microsoft
alludes to Linux violating its unidentified patents.

Remember the Best Buy et. al. scheduling order?

-----------------------------------------------------------
"Shira A. Scheindlin U.S.D.J.
...
2. A concise statement of the issues as they then appear;

Pending results of Defendants' investigations, Defendants
intend to show that the Plaintiff's have no damages, that
the Defendants did nothing actionable under copyright law, that
any alleged copying was not willful, that Plaintiffs are not
the proper parties, that the copyright held by Mr. Andersen
is not applicable, and that, since being put on notice of
the purported requirements of the general public license,
Defendants have endeavored to come into compliance with what
can only be described as a 'moving target'."
------------------------------------------------------------

It makes perfect sense to force a plaintiff to identify with specificity
his original work that was allegedly infringed. Would you support
Microsoft's ability to file for copyright infringement over code it
cannot or will not specifically identify in its Windows operating
system? How would a defendant prepare a defense against infringement of
a "moving target"?

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Alan Mackenzie
2010-05-13 10:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by RJack
Ahhhh... a frank admission of noinfringement.
Copying and distribution of GPL-covered works without following the
requirements of the GPL is infringement of the copyrights of the
rights holders. Even assuming the lawsuit is faulty for not having
the correct version registered, copyright infringement is occurring
regardless.
How can the plaintiff even know which version of Busybox has been
distributed? It is likely that the defendants have customised
Busybox to their own requirements, hence what they distribute won't
match ANY properly released version. It's thus silly to expect the
plaintiffs to specify the exact version, and US law is surely not
_that_ silly.
So... do you propose charging a defendant with copyright infringement of
unidentified code? People scream bloody murder when Microsoft
alludes to Linux violating its unidentified patents.
Not at all. The code has been identified as being some version of
Busybox. All versions of Busybox are copyrighted by its writers.

The situation is a bit analogous to taking a copyright book, changing a
few words here and there, then maintaining it's not identical to the
registered book, so it's not subject to copyright.
Post by RJack
Remember the Best Buy et. al. scheduling order?
No.
Post by RJack
It makes perfect sense to force a plaintiff to identify with specificity
his original work that was allegedly infringed.
yes. That work is called Busybox. I think your assumption here is that
two copyright works are either identical or different, and that there're
no shades of grey between these extremes. I doubt the courts subscribe
to that view.
Post by RJack
Would you support Microsoft's ability to file for copyright
infringement over code it cannot or will not specifically identify in
its Windows operating system?
No. I would expect MS to identify the files involved, or the subsystems
involved, or whatever. Enough for the defendants to know what they've
allegedly violated. Which particular versions of those files would be
immaterial.
Post by RJack
How would a defendant prepare a defense against infringement of a
"moving target"?
By shooting at it whilst taking account of its motion. Has this got
anything to do with anything? The metaphor of a "target" seems rather
strained here.
Post by RJack
Sincerely,
RJack :)
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
RJack
2010-05-13 10:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by RJack
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by RJack
Ahhhh... a frank admission of noinfringement.
Copying and distribution of GPL-covered works without following
the requirements of the GPL is infringement of the copyrights
of the rights holders. Even assuming the lawsuit is faulty for
not having the correct version registered, copyright
infringement is occurring regardless.
How can the plaintiff even know which version of Busybox has been
distributed? It is likely that the defendants have customised
Busybox to their own requirements, hence what they distribute
won't match ANY properly released version. It's thus silly to
expect the plaintiffs to specify the exact version, and US law is
surely not _that_ silly.
So... do you propose charging a defendant with copyright
infringement of unidentified code? People scream bloody murder when
Microsoft alludes to Linux violating its unidentified patents.
Not at all. The code has been identified as being some version of
Busybox. All versions of Busybox are copyrighted by its writers.
The situation is a bit analogous to taking a copyright book, changing
a few words here and there, then maintaining it's not identical to
the registered book, so it's not subject to copyright.
Post by RJack
Remember the Best Buy et. al. scheduling order?
No.
Post by RJack
It makes perfect sense to force a plaintiff to identify with
specificity his original work that was allegedly infringed.
yes. That work is called Busybox. I think your assumption here is
that two copyright works are either identical or different, and that
there're no shades of grey between these extremes. I doubt the
courts subscribe to that view.
There are over fifty contributing authors to BusyBox. BusyBox history
reflects a growth of hundreds of thousands lines of code. Just take your
pick huh? Is that the way they do it in Europe?
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by RJack
Would you support Microsoft's ability to file for copyright
infringement over code it cannot or will not specifically identify
in its Windows operating system?
No. I would expect MS to identify the files involved, or the
subsystems involved, or whatever. Enough for the defendants to know
what they've allegedly violated. Which particular versions of those
files would be immaterial.
So has Erik Andersen identified the files or subsystems in BusyBox or
would your proposal apply only to Microsoft suits?
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by RJack
How would a defendant prepare a defense against infringement of a
"moving target"?
By shooting at it whilst taking account of its motion. Has this got
anything to do with anything? The metaphor of a "target" seems
rather strained here.
Sincerely,
RJack :)
amicus_curious
2010-05-13 13:58:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Mackenzie
No. I would expect MS to identify the files involved, or the subsystems
involved, or whatever. Enough for the defendants to know what they've
allegedly violated. Which particular versions of those files would be
immaterial.
Are you suggesting that the companies that have entered into licensing
agreements with Microsoft for use of its patents are doing so out of fear
and are ignorant of the specifics? That is a rather silly position for you
to take. You have no knowledge of anything specific to these cases and only
your bias to rely on. You and the rest of the FLOSS world are not privy to
the terms and conditions because the commercial value of FLOSS is
insufficient to warrant its inclusion into the discovery process.

First find a profitable business involving this type of code and then you
will find out soon enough what the particulars are. It is not worth
Microsoft's time to bother with those who are not benefiting from the use of
these patents, but when one of them rises to a level of profit, then they
are asked to pay their share.
Alan Mackenzie
2010-05-13 14:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by amicus_curious
Post by Alan Mackenzie
No. I would expect MS to identify the files involved, or the
subsystems involved, or whatever. Enough for the defendants to know
what they've allegedly violated. Which particular versions of those
files would be immaterial.
Are you suggesting that the companies that have entered into licensing
agreements with Microsoft for use of its patents are doing so out of
fear and are ignorant of the specifics?
No, not at all. The discussion was purely about copyright, not patents.
Post by amicus_curious
That is a rather silly position for you to take. [....]
You're knocking down the strawman you've created.
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
RJack
2010-05-13 16:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by amicus_curious
Post by Alan Mackenzie
No. I would expect MS to identify the files involved, or the
subsystems involved, or whatever. Enough for the defendants to know
what they've allegedly violated. Which particular versions of those
files would be immaterial.
Are you suggesting that the companies that have entered into licensing
agreements with Microsoft for use of its patents are doing so out of
fear and are ignorant of the specifics?
No, not at all. The discussion was purely about copyright, not patents.
Post by amicus_curious
That is a rather silly position for you to take. [....]
You're knocking down the strawman you've created.
I invoked the patent analogy and it is certainly *no* straw man
argument. It is preposterous to think that any plaintiff could file
infringement claims over nonspecific, non-identified intellectual
property whether coprights, patents or trademarks. I realize you
socialists don't want to acknowledge the concept of specific
intellectual property but that's just life.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-13 18:01:18 UTC
Permalink
the concept of specific intellectual property
It is the case, given US copyright law, that copying and
distributing a work which is a derivative work of another
even several generations removed, or copying and distributing
a combined work which contains a copyrighted work, requires
permission from the rights holder of that work. In the case
of BusyBox, BusyBox is a combined work containing works which
are themselves derivative works, and is itself a derivative
work created anew each time its contents are changed or
rearranged. It is the nature of software projects to throw
off many versions, and it is the nature of open projects to
have many authors. Comes time to assert a copyright claim,
sorting out what must be registered is complicated. But that
difficulty does not detract from the claim of infringement,
it merely requires guidance from the court on what needs to
be registered, and having that, registration can be done and
the case can proceed.
RJack
2010-05-13 19:31:08 UTC
Permalink
the concept of specific intellectual property
It is the case, given US copyright law, that copying and distributing
a work which is a derivative work of another even several
generations removed, or copying and distributing a combined work
which contains a copyrighted work, requires permission from the
rights holder of that work.
Yes the contractual permissions of both rights holders is required to
DISTRIBUTE the respective independent parts (preexisting and modifying)
of the combined work. Quite true.

BUT in order to REGISTER a derivative work as a whole more is required
-- OWNERSHIP is required.

Erik Andersen does not own BusyBox:

"...
The version 0.60.3 of Busybox upon which Mr. Andersen claims copyright
registration in the lawsuits is to a great extent my own work and that
of other developers. I am not party to the registration. It is not at
all clear that Mr. Andersen holds a majority interest in that work.

Mr. Andersen, his past employers and Mr. Landley appear to have removed
some of the copyright statements of other Busybox developers, and appear
to have altered license statements, in apparent violation of various laws...

Much as other Busybox developers wish to support the general cause of
getting companies to comply with simple Free Software Licenses, some of
the other developers and I are becoming annoyed with Mr. Andersen and
Mr. Landley's apparent violation of our own rights, and SFLC's treatment
of our interest. We have held off, to date, to avoid confusing issues,
but our patience is limited."
http://perens.com/blog/
In the case of BusyBox, BusyBox is a combined work containing works
which are themselves derivative works, and is itself a derivative
work created anew each time its contents are changed or rearranged.
It is the nature of software projects to throw off many versions, and
it is the nature of open projects to have many authors. Comes time
to assert a copyright claim, sorting out what must be registered is
complicated. But that difficulty does not detract from the claim of
infringement, it merely requires guidance from the court on what
needs to be registered, and having that, registration can be done and
the case can proceed.
The preexisting contribution may be registered by the preexisting
author. The modifying contribution may be registered by the modifying
author. They own their respective contributions but a derivative work
consists of mutually exclusive parts (17 USC 103(b).

If Erik Andersen wishes to REGISTER *his* own source code contributions
that he owns for any version of BusyBox then my all means let his do so.
Let him then sue whomever he wishes for copyright infringement of *his*
own contributions that he has properly registered.

It is my fervent hope that the SFLC lawyers *do* attain at a least a
modicum of competency in copyright law such that a GPL licensed work can
be properly registered and the license evaluated on its merits by the court.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
RJack
2010-05-13 19:40:10 UTC
Permalink
SFLC loses another one. Erik Andersen is forced to voluntarily dismiss
Dobbs-Stanford Corporation without settlement.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-13 19:55:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
SFLC loses another one. Erik Andersen is forced to voluntarily dismiss
Dobbs-Stanford Corporation without settlement.
The SFLC wins another one. After Dobbs-Stanford agrees to comply
with the GPL, the SFLC ends the case against them. Here is the web
page on which DSC makes the GPLed sources properly available:
<http://www.fjdisplay.com.tw/GPL_B1080P-3.php>
RJack
2010-05-13 20:23:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
SFLC loses another one. Erik Andersen is forced to voluntarily
dismiss Dobbs-Stanford Corporation without settlement.
The SFLC wins another one. After Dobbs-Stanford agrees to comply with
the GPL, the SFLC ends the case against them. Here is the web page on
<http://www.fjdisplay.com.tw/GPL_B1080P-3.php>
LMAO:
Voluntarily dismissing your case and being denied all relief you
requested is victory?

"WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs respectfully request judgment against each
Defendant as follows:
(1) That the Court issue injunctive relief against each Defendant, and
that each Defendant, its directors, principals, officers, agents,
representatives, servants, employees, attorneys, successors and assigns,
and all others in active concert or participation with each
Defendant, be enjoined and restrained from copying, modifying,
distributing or making any other infringing use of Plaintiffs’ software.
(2) That the Court order each Defendant to pay Plaintiffs’ actual and
consequential damages incurred or statutory damages;
(3) That the Court order each Defendant to account for and disgorge to
Plaintiffs all profits derived from its unlawful acts;
(4) That the Court order each Defendant to pay Plaintiffs’ litigation
expenses, including reasonable attorneys' fees and costs of this action; and
(5) That the Court grant Plaintiffs any such further relief as the Court
may deem just and proper."

LMAO:
One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came
to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over
a lofty branch. "Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he. Drawing
back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch.
Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no
greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but
at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air,
saying: "I am sure they are sour."

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-13 20:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Voluntarily dismissing your case and being denied all relief you
requested is victory?
Of course. The purpose of the SFLC's lawsuits is to insure that
companies who copy and distribute GPL-covered works comply with
the GPL. In each and every case brought by the SFLC which has
ended, the defendants have complied with the GPL.
David Kastrup
2010-05-14 21:27:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
SFLC loses another one. Erik Andersen is forced to voluntarily dismiss
Dobbs-Stanford Corporation without settlement.
Yeah, they "forced" him by coming into compliance. Do you really not
realize how abysmally stupid the phrase "forced to voluntarily" comes
across?

You are really lousy at propaganda. It stinks already at face value,
without even needing to check the facts (which make you look even more
stupid, if that is even possible).
--
David Kastrup
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-15 09:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by RJack
SFLC loses another one. Erik Andersen is forced to voluntarily dismiss
Dobbs-Stanford Corporation without settlement.
Yeah, they "forced" him by coming into compliance.
The dismissal stipulation said nothing about compliance, stupid dak.

Previously the SFLC used to issue press releases ala

"As a result of the plaintiffs agreeing to dismiss the lawsuit and
reinstate Monsoon Multimedia's rights to distribute BusyBox under the
GPL, Monsoon Multimedia has agreed to appoint an open-source compliance
officer within its organization to monitor and ensure GPL compliance, to
publish the source code for the version of BusyBox it previously
distributed on its Web site, and to undertake substantial efforts to
notify previous recipients of BusyBox from Monsoon Multimedia of their
rights to the software under the GPL. The settlement also includes an
undisclosed amount of financial consideration paid by Monsoon Multimedia
to the plaintiffs. "

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7196817322.html

Where are such press releases about recent dismissals, retard dak?
Post by David Kastrup
Do you really not
realize how abysmally stupid the phrase "forced to voluntarily" comes
across?
Uh silly dak. Suppose a court would impose a prison sentence on you (say
a month or two). The next step is that a couple of months after the
sentence would come into effect (subject to eventual appeals) you'll get
an invitation letter from prison to come to serve the sentence. If you
follow the invitation on time, one would say that you've been forced (by
sentence) to voluntarily come to prison to serve the sentence --
otherwise some time later police would come to you and force you to
involuntarily serve the sentence. Got it now silly dak?
Post by David Kastrup
You are really lousy at propaganda.
Said dak "the main difference to the variants of communism typical
Americans associate with the devil, however, is that participation in
the GNU communism is entirely voluntary and works on a case-by-case
basis for software" the idiot.

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
David Kastrup
2010-05-15 15:44:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Post by David Kastrup
Post by RJack
SFLC loses another one. Erik Andersen is forced to voluntarily dismiss
Dobbs-Stanford Corporation without settlement.
Yeah, they "forced" him by coming into compliance.
The dismissal stipulation said nothing about compliance, stupid dak.
Their actions say something about compliance.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Previously the SFLC used to issue press releases ala
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7196817322.html
Where are such press releases about recent dismissals, retard dak?
You really expect press releases about an ongoing court case? Once the
whole case is closed, there might be something. Or not.

The important thing is that they are coming into compliance and make the
corresponding source code available. It would appear that they did this
rather speedily.
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Post by David Kastrup
Do you really not realize how abysmally stupid the phrase "forced to
voluntarily" comes across?
Uh silly dak. Suppose a court would impose a prison sentence on you
(say a month or two). The next step is that a couple of months after
the sentence would come into effect (subject to eventual appeals)
you'll get an invitation letter from prison to come to serve the
sentence. If you follow the invitation on time, one would say that
you've been forced (by sentence) to voluntarily come to prison to
serve the sentence -- otherwise some time later police would come to
you and force you to involuntarily serve the sentence. Got it now
silly dak?
Nope, "voluntarily" in my book still means "of one's own volition" and
not "under threat of penalty".
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Post by David Kastrup
You are really lousy at propaganda.
Said dak "the main difference to the variants of communism typical
Americans associate with the devil, however, is that participation in
the GNU communism is entirely voluntary and works on a case-by-case
basis for software" the idiot.
Oh, did you not understand what I was saying? If you point out what in
that sentence (in the context it was uttered) is confusing to you, I
might explain it to you.
--
David Kastrup
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-15 16:34:30 UTC
Permalink
David Kastrup wrote:
[...]
Post by David Kastrup
The important thing is that they are coming into compliance and make the
corresponding source code available. It would appear that they did this
Dak's "important thing" is that "they are coming into compliance"
meaning that they are allegedly making "corresponding source code
available". What source code are you talking about exactly, dak? Show me
the code, stupid dak, line by line, you idiot.

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-13 19:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
BUT in order to REGISTER a derivative work as a whole more is required
-- OWNERSHIP is required.
You own copyrights in a work when you have created all or
part of that work.

<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gaiman_v._McFarlane>
McFarlane’s registrations no more revealed an intent to claim
copyright in Gaiman’s contributions, as distinct from McFarlane’s
own contributions as compiler and illustrator, than the copyright
notices did. The significance of registration is that it is a
prerequisite to a suit to enforce a copyright.
RJack
2010-05-13 20:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
BUT in order to REGISTER a derivative work as a whole more is
required -- OWNERSHIP is required.
You own copyrights in a work when you have created all or part of
that work.
<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gaiman_v._McFarlane> McFarlane’s
registrations no more revealed an intent to claim copyright in
Gaiman’s contributions, as distinct from McFarlane’s own
contributions as compiler and illustrator, than the copyright notices
did. The significance of registration is that it is a prerequisite to
a suit to enforce a copyright.
Here is more of your SEVENTH CIRCUIT quote:
<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gaiman_v._McFarlane>

":The significance of registration is that it is a prerequisite to a
suit to enforce a copyright. More precisely, an application to register
must be filed, and either granted or refused, before suit can be
brought.17 U.S.C. § 411(a).

There is an interesting question, left open in our recent decision in
Chicago Bd. of Education v. Substance, Inc., 354 F.3d 624, 631 (7th Cir.
2003), and unnecessary to decide in this case either, whether if
registration is granted by mistake the registrant may nonetheless sue.

All that is important in this case is that it is no more the purpose of
registration to start statutes of limitations running than it is the
purpose of the copyright notice itself to do so."

Why didn't you include the full context highlighted above?
". . .and unnecessary to decide in this case either, whether if
registration is granted by mistake the registrant may nonetheless sue."
Do you call that legal authority?

I am puzzled by your position. The defendants in Best Buy et. al. have
denied Andersen's ownership of BusyBox. The burden is on Andersen to
prove his ownership. What's your point? That the SFLC and Andersen
are blithering idiots when they can't prove ownership of BusyBox?

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-13 20:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Why didn't you include the full context highlighted above?
Because it is irrelevant. The portion I quoted demonstrates
a court saying that the registration of a copyright is a claim
by the registrant to ownership of his part in the work, and does
not make any statement with regards to ownership or lack of same
by anyone else. The extra portions you quote neither contribute
to nor refute this point, which is why I omitted them.
Post by RJack
I am puzzled by your position. The defendants in Best Buy et. al. have
denied Andersen's ownership of BusyBox. The burden is on Andersen to
prove his ownership. What's your point? That the SFLC and Andersen
are blithering idiots when they can't prove ownership of BusyBox?
My position is that Erik Anderson is an owner of BusyBox,
that his registration of copyright in BusyBox is valid,
and that the claims by the defendants that Erik Anderson
is not an owner of BusyBox are incorrect.
RJack
2010-05-13 20:32:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Why didn't you include the full context highlighted above?
Because it is irrelevant. The portion I quoted demonstrates a court
saying that the registration of a copyright is a claim by the
registrant to ownership of his part in the work, and does not make
any statement with regards to ownership or lack of same by anyone
else. The extra portions you quote neither contribute to nor refute
this point, which is why I omitted them.
Post by RJack
I am puzzled by your position. The defendants in Best Buy et. al.
have denied Andersen's ownership of BusyBox. The burden is on
Andersen to prove his ownership. What's your point? That the SFLC
and Andersen are blithering idiots when they can't prove ownership
of BusyBox?
My position is that Erik Anderson is an owner of BusyBox, that his
registration of copyright in BusyBox is valid, and that the claims by
the defendants that Erik Anderson is not an owner of BusyBox are
incorrect.
Claim away Hyman. There are bigger fools than you out there. The
Birthers claim Obama was born in Kenya, Timbuktu and God knows
where else.

Claim away Hyman. Claim away.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
David Kastrup
2010-05-14 21:30:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by RJack
Why didn't you include the full context highlighted above?
Because it is irrelevant. The portion I quoted demonstrates a court
saying that the registration of a copyright is a claim by the
registrant to ownership of his part in the work, and does not make
any statement with regards to ownership or lack of same by anyone
else. The extra portions you quote neither contribute to nor refute
this point, which is why I omitted them.
Post by RJack
I am puzzled by your position. The defendants in Best Buy et. al.
have denied Andersen's ownership of BusyBox. The burden is on
Andersen to prove his ownership. What's your point? That the SFLC
and Andersen are blithering idiots when they can't prove ownership
of BusyBox?
My position is that Erik Anderson is an owner of BusyBox, that his
registration of copyright in BusyBox is valid, and that the claims by
the defendants that Erik Anderson is not an owner of BusyBox are
incorrect.
Claim away Hyman. There are bigger fools than you out there. The
Birthers claim Obama was born in Kenya, Timbuktu and God knows
where else.
Whereas you do your best to sound like you were born about 1in south
from what one would ordinarily assume.
--
David Kastrup
RJack
2010-05-14 23:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by RJack
Post by RJack
Why didn't you include the full context highlighted above?
Because it is irrelevant. The portion I quoted demonstrates a
court saying that the registration of a copyright is a claim by
the registrant to ownership of his part in the work, and does not
make any statement with regards to ownership or lack of same by
anyone else. The extra portions you quote neither contribute to
nor refute this point, which is why I omitted them.
Post by RJack
I am puzzled by your position. The defendants in Best Buy et.
al. have denied Andersen's ownership of BusyBox. The burden is
on Andersen to prove his ownership. What's your point? That the
SFLC and Andersen are blithering idiots when they can't prove
ownership of BusyBox?
My position is that Erik Anderson is an owner of BusyBox, that
his registration of copyright in BusyBox is valid, and that the
claims by the defendants that Erik Anderson is not an owner of
BusyBox are incorrect.
Claim away Hyman. There are bigger fools than you out there. The
Birthers claim Obama was born in Kenya, Timbuktu and God knows
where else.
Whereas you do your best to sound like you were born about 1in south
from what one would ordinarily assume.
Cat piss in your Cheerios today?

Sincerely,
RJack :)

Have a nice day DAK!
_ _
|R| |R|
|J| /^^^\ |J|
_|a|_ (| "o" |) _|a|_
_| |c| | _ (_---_) _ | |c| |_
| | |k| ||-| _| |_ |-|| |k| | |
| | / \ | |
\ / / /(. .)\ \ \ /
\ / / / | . | \ \ \ /
\ \/ / ||Y|| \ \/ /
\__/ || || \__/
() ()
|| ||
ooO Ooo
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-15 10:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Hyman Rosen wrote:
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
My position is that Erik Anderson is an owner of BusyBox,
*An* owner? <chuckles> Silly Hyman.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html

"Why Software Should Not Have Owners"

BTW, the compliant alleged that Erik Andersen

"20. Mr. Andersen is the author and developer of the BusyBox computer
program, and the
owner of copyrights in that computer program."

http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2009/busybox-complaint-2009-12-14.pdf

is THE owner, not AN owner. YOU RETARD.

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
David Kastrup
2010-05-15 15:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
[...]
Post by Hyman Rosen
My position is that Erik Anderson is an owner of BusyBox,
*An* owner? <chuckles> Silly Hyman.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html
"Why Software Should Not Have Owners"
BTW, the compliant alleged that Erik Andersen
"20. Mr. Andersen is the author and developer of the BusyBox computer
program, and the
owner of copyrights in that computer program."
http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2009/busybox-complaint-2009-12-14.pdf
is THE owner, not AN owner. YOU RETARD.
"the owner of copyrights", not "the owner of all copyrights" or "of the
copyrights".

Anyway, you'll actually find that both judges and attorneys (sometimes
to the irritation of their clients) are not completely gung-ho about the
literal meaning of every sentence, but rather about the relation of the
facts (as established by the evidence) with the law.

A judge will still know what the case is supposed to be about should an
attorney pick the wrong pronoun.

Fortunately, a judge is not reduced to stammering "yes" or "no" to every
single sentence in the proceedings.

The problem with your tendency to decide what a case should end with
based on isolated sentences is that this sort of utter blindness to what
is actually relevant leaves enough leeway to decide any court case in
favor of any party. It's like saying you _know_ some soccer team is
going to win the championship since you witnessed one of the players
make a goal once.
--
David Kastrup
RJack
2010-05-15 16:19:29 UTC
Permalink
I think we can guess the standard Judge Scheindlin will use to review
the GPL license in the Best Buy et. al. case.

"'[W]"here an author brings an infringement action against a purported
licensee, the license may be raised as a defense'. When the dispute is
over whether a license exists, the alleged infringer has the burden of
proving its existence. However, determining whether a defendant's
activities fall within the scope of an existing license essentially
involves a question of contract interpretation."; Reinhardt v. Wal-mart
Stores, Inc. et al., case no. 1:2007cv08233
(SDNY 2007}, Judge Shira Scheindlin.
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-york/nysdce/1:2007cv08233/313411/12/0.pdf

This does not bode well for DAK and PJ over at Groklaw:

“The GPL is a License, Not a Contract, Which is Why the Sky Isn't
Falling”, Sunday, December 14 2003 @ 09:06 PM EST Pamela Jones at
Groklaw.
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031214210634851

Judge Scheindlin has also held:

"n52 Plaintiffs bring claims for "Contract Failure of Condition" against
each defendant. The Court is not familiar with this term. I assume
"Contract Failure of Condition" is a claim for breach of a condition
precedent." Abu Dhabi Commercial Bank, et al. v. Morgan Stanley & Co.,
et al., 1:2008cv07508, SDNY, (2008). -- Judge Shira A. Scheindlin.
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/AbuDhabi.pdf

This doesn't bode well for Hyman Rosen and his favorite erroneous CAFC
ruling in the Aristic License case.

Sometimes we can glean useful insight into the standards a judge will
use in reviewing a case.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
David Kastrup
2010-05-15 21:31:42 UTC
Permalink
I think we can guess the standard Judge Scheindlin will use to review
the GPL license in the Best Buy et. al. case.
It is a reasonably safe bet that whatever a judge will say, your
interpretation of the significance of his words with regard to the GPL
will be in stark contrast to the eventual ruling the same judge will
come up with.

Your preconcluded delusions are not going to be fazed by the _meaning_
of legal precedence. You might as well be reading the entrails of doves
rather than legal documents -- your hit rate will be about the same.
--
David Kastrup
RJack
2010-05-16 14:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
I think we can guess the standard Judge Scheindlin will use to
review the GPL license in the Best Buy et. al. case.
It is a reasonably safe bet that whatever a judge will say, your
interpretation of the significance of his words with regard to the
GPL will be in stark contrast to the eventual ruling the same judge
will come up with.
Your preconcluded delusions are not going to be fazed by the
_meaning_ of legal precedence. You might as well be reading the
entrails of doves rather than legal documents -- your hit rate will
be about the same.
Did the dog piss in your Wheaties this morning DAK? Perhaps you should
take a day off, relax, have a Budweiser and get a nob job. It'll do
wonders for your outlook on life.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-17 13:42:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
This doesn't bode well for Hyman Rosen and his favorite erroneous
CAFC ruling in the Aristic License case.
Oh, dear. I'm positively trembling with anxiety.
Post by RJack
"determining whether a defendant's activities fall within the
scope of an existing license essentially involves a question
of contract interpretation"
Duh. How else would license terms be interpreted? If the SFLC
defendants choose to assert that they are operating under the
GPL, then they will need to explain why they are not making
the sources available as the license requires.
RJack
2010-05-17 14:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by RJack
This doesn't bode well for Hyman Rosen and his favorite erroneous
CAFC ruling in the Aristic License case.
Oh, dear. I'm positively trembling with anxiety.
Post by RJack
"determining whether a defendant's activities fall within the scope
of an existing license essentially involves a question of contract
interpretation"
Duh. How else would license terms be interpreted? If the SFLC
defendants choose to assert that they are operating under the GPL,
then they will need to explain why they are not making the sources
available as the license requires.
The defendants don't have to prove anything. The plaintiffs affirm the
existence of a license and thus have to demonstrate that he defendants
exceeded the scope of the license. The enforceability of the license
terms is a matter of law. The license speaks for itself and the court
will review the GPL license, shred it and then deposit it in the round
filing bin under her desk.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-17 14:31:04 UTC
Permalink
the court will review the GPL license,
That would be nice.
shred it and then deposit it in the round filing bin under her desk
Only in your dreams. So far, courts seem to believe
that open licenses mean just what they say, and are
to be obeyed.
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-17 13:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
"20. Mr. Andersen is the author and developer of the BusyBox computer
program, and the owner of copyrights in that computer program."
http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2009/busybox-complaint-2009-12-14.pdf
is THE owner, not AN owner.
<http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2009/busybox-complaint-2009-12-14.pdf>
31. Mr. Andersen is, and at all relevant times has been,
a copyright owner under United States copyright law in the
FOSS software program known as BusyBox.

"A copyright owner", not "THE copyright owner".
RJack
2010-05-15 18:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Why didn't you include the full context highlighted above?
Because it is irrelevant. The portion I quoted demonstrates a court
saying that the registration of a copyright is a claim by the
registrant to ownership of his part in the work, and does not make
any statement with regards to ownership or lack of same by anyone
else. The extra portions you quote neither contribute to nor refute
this point, which is why I omitted them.
Post by RJack
I am puzzled by your position. The defendants in Best Buy et. al.
have denied Andersen's ownership of BusyBox. The burden is on
Andersen to prove his ownership. What's your point? That the SFLC
and Andersen are blithering idiots when they can't prove ownership
of BusyBox?
My position is that Erik Anderson is an owner of BusyBox, that his
registration of copyright in BusyBox is valid, and that the claims by
the defendants that Erik Anderson is not an owner of BusyBox are
incorrect.
This ruling from the SDNY exposes the fallacy of your position:

"3. Errors, Misstatements and Omissions in the Copyright Registration.

Jewelex next alleges that Eyal does not hold a valid copyright in the
jewelry design at issue in this case because the registration
application fails to comply with the requirements set forth in 17
U.S.C. §§ 409 (7) - (9) and (11). . ."

http://www.loeb.com/files/Publication/958cd8c9-1f66-4f59-99cc-04be39500f5c/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/d74d06ae-abe1-4b26-9f21-0ac8a9f33c33/Eyal%20RD%20Corp%20v%20Jewelex%20NY%20Ltd%20SDNY%20Sept%202008%20den%20def%20SJ.pdf

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-17 13:54:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
"3. Errors, Misstatements and Omissions in the Copyright Registration.
Jewelex next alleges that Eyal does not hold a valid copyright in the
jewelry design at issue in this case because the registration
application fails to comply with the requirements set forth in 17
U.S.C. §§ 409 (7) - (9) and (11). . ."
Are you joining your fellow crank in posting references which
directly contradict your thesis? You quote the court's summary
of the complaint without quoting court's disagreement with it?

<http://www.loeb.com/files/Publication/958cd8c9-1f66-4f59-99cc-04be39500f5c/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/d74d06ae-abe1-4b26-9f21-0ac8a9f33c33/Eyal%20RD%20Corp%20v%20Jewelex%20NY%20Ltd%20SDNY%20Sept%202008%20den%20def%20SJ.pdf>
Assuming arguendo that Eyal’s registration application
contained errors, misstatements, or omissions in one or
more of the respects urged by Jewelex, that does not
resolve the ultimate question before the Court.

The ultimate question the Court must resolve is whether
an error, misstatement or omission in an application for
registration invalidates the copyright. Courts considering
the issue have generally followed a liberal approach to
upholding erroneous registration applications.
...
In sum: after considering each of Jewelex’s contentions
that Eyal’s copyright registration is invalid, I conclude
that they do not, singly or in combination, entitle Jewelex
to summary judgment based upon the invalidity of the
registration in suit.
RJack
2010-05-17 14:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
This ruling from the SDNY exposes the fallacy of your position: "3.
Errors, Misstatements and Omissions in the Copyright Registration.
Jewelex next alleges that Eyal does not hold a valid copyright in
the jewelry design at issue in this case because the registration
application fails to comply with the requirements set forth in 17
U.S.C. §§ 409 (7) - (9) and (11). . ."
Are you joining your fellow crank in posting references which
directly contradict your thesis? You quote the court's summary of the
complaint without quoting court's disagreement with it?
<http://www.loeb.com/files/Publication/958cd8c9-1f66-4f59-99cc-04be39500f5c/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/d74d06ae-abe1-4b26-9f21-0ac8a9f33c33/Eyal%20RD%20Corp%20v%20Jewelex%20NY%20Ltd%20SDNY%20Sept%202008%20den%20def%20SJ.pdf>
Assuming arguendo that Eyal’s registration application contained
errors, misstatements, or omissions in one or more of the respects
urged by Jewelex, that does not resolve the ultimate question before
the Court.
The ultimate question the Court must resolve is whether an error,
misstatement or omission in an application for registration
invalidates the copyright. Courts considering the issue have
generally followed a liberal approach to upholding erroneous
registration applications. ... In sum: after considering each of
Jewelex’s contentions that Eyal’s copyright registration is invalid,
I conclude that they do not, singly or in combination, entitle
Jewelex to summary judgment based upon the invalidity of the
registration in suit.
Why not refer to the relevant point Hyman? You claim that Andersen's
Copyright Office registration of BusyBox v. 0.60.3 with its
contributions from multiple authors is valid. I say it isn't. So read
the relevant part of the decision:


"Jewelex argues that Eyal failed to specify the correlation between the
jewelry designs within the collection as required by 17 U.S.C. § 408(c)
of the Copyright Act, and therefore the copyright is invalid. The Act
permits registration of multiple related works under a single
copyright application. 17 U.S.C. § 408(c)(2) provides:
(2) Without prejudice to the general authority provided under clause
(1), the Register of Copyrights shall establish regulations specifically
permitting a single registration for a group of works by the same
individual author, all first published as contributions to periodicals,
including newspapers, within a twelve-month period, on the basis of a
single deposit, application, and registration fee, under the following
conditions:"


Hyman, look at the relevant material:

"... a single registration for a group of works by the same individual
author,..."

Are you so cognitively impaired that you can't understand that BusyBox
is NOT NOT NOT NOT:

1) "a single registration"
2) "for a GROUP of works"
3) "by the SAME INDIVIDUAL author,"

Most reasonably intelligent people would effortlessly conclude that the
registration of BusyBox v. 0.60.3 is not "a single registration for a
group of works by the same individual author" (except you of course).

The Copyright Act does not allow an individual to register a work that
he does not own. Is that so hard to grasp?

Sincerely,
RJack :)

Hyman Rosen
2010-05-13 15:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by amicus_curious
Are you suggesting that the companies that have entered into licensing
agreements with Microsoft for use of its patents are doing so out of
fear and are ignorant of the specifics?
Anti-Microsoft cranks are inclined to believe that Microsoft
benefits from such agreements because they lend credence to
its patent claims without having the patents subjected to an
adversarial process which might invalidate them, and that
therefore Microsoft charges very little for such licensing
and then trumpets each arrangement in press releases.
David Kastrup
2010-05-14 21:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by amicus_curious
Post by Alan Mackenzie
No. I would expect MS to identify the files involved, or the subsystems
involved, or whatever. Enough for the defendants to know what they've
allegedly violated. Which particular versions of those files would be
immaterial.
Are you suggesting that the companies that have entered into licensing
agreements with Microsoft for use of its patents are doing so out of
fear and are ignorant of the specifics? That is a rather silly
position for you to take.
Huh? Most licensing agreements are cross-licensing. They are done
_exactly_ because it's expensive and error-prone to track all specifics.
So yes, you could say that _many_ licensing agreements with extensive
license holders are done "out of fear" and "ignorant of the specifics".
--
David Kastrup
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-13 14:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Mackenzie
How can the plaintiff even know which version of Busybox has been
distributed?
Through the discovery process (that is, by asking).
Post by Alan Mackenzie
It is likely that the defendants have customised Busybox to
their own requirements, hence what they distribute won't match ANY
properly released version. It's thus silly to expect the plaintiffs to
specify the exact version, and US law is surely not _that_ silly.
Copyright law and computer programs are an imperfect mix.
Outcomes would depend on specific facts of the case.
David Kastrup
2010-05-12 20:18:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by Alexander Terekhov
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by RJack
By all means, please post the self serving fictitious reply.
I won't since the reply was a private e-mail to me. But you will
undoubtedly be displeased to know that the 'MI424WR - FW: 20.10.7'
link on http://opensource.actiontec.com/ is once again correctly
supplying a source code file.
Did you check the source code for its "completeness" in the GNU
sense, you retard?
regards, alexander.
P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds
the originality standards required by copyright law."
P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."
-- http://gng.z505.com/index.htm (GNG is a derecursive recursive
derecursion which pwns GNU since it can be infinitely looped as
GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards too, whereas GNU
cannot.)
There is no link to "BusyBox v.0.60.3" as claimed in the lawsuit.
Nothing like that was claimed in the lawsuit. That is the version of
Busybox whose copyright registration was used as a base of the lawsuit.
But the GPL demands the _corresponding_ source code to distributed
binaries, not just any old sourcecode version that happens to be
registered.

In particular, when the vendor made modifications, it would be utterly
_pointless_ if some registered version was made available that did not
correspond to the binaries. And _of_ _course_ the plaintiff can't
register copyright for a version including vendor modifications. But he
can register copyright for a version sharing identifiable amounts of
code (sections for which he is copyright holder) with the vendor
version.

The point of the GPL is not forcing people to become separate
distribution channels. The point is to provide _corresponding_ source
to the binaries a customer gets as soon as identifiable portions of
copyrighted and registered code can be found.

Are you claiming that there is no code overlap between the Actiontec
distribution and Busybox v.0.60.3? Unless that is the case, your
argument is irrelevant.
--
David Kastrup
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 20:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Are you claiming that there is no code overlap between the Actiontec
distribution and Busybox v.0.60.3?
In at least some districts, courts require registration of the
exact version of the work which is the subject of the case. Had
the defendants chosen to pursue their defense instead of settling,
they could have made the argument that plaintiffs did not register
the disputed work and that therefore the case should be dismissed.
However, plaintiffs could then simply register the proper version
and re-file.
David Kastrup
2010-05-12 20:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by David Kastrup
Are you claiming that there is no code overlap between the Actiontec
distribution and Busybox v.0.60.3?
In at least some districts, courts require registration of the
exact version of the work which is the subject of the case.
You have to have sufficient overlap. But it would be pointless to
demand registration of some "exact version" when the defendant has
modified the original version. Of course the plaintiff can't register
the exact version resulting from the defendant's modifications.

So I have my doubt about your statement here. Of course, when some
versions have diverged sufficiently to not leave identifiable code
passages, the court will reject the claim since he has no base to work
with.

For example, if 0.6 was a complete rewrite from scratch, you can't use a
registration of 0.6 to complain about infringement of version 0.59 and
vice versa.
--
David Kastrup
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 20:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
You have to have sufficient overlap. But it would be pointless to
demand registration of some "exact version" when the defendant has
modified the original version. Of course the plaintiff can't register
the exact version resulting from the defendant's modifications.
I don't believe that in the cases mounted by the SFLC the
defendants distributed a version they themselves modified.
SimplexGrinnel v. ISP considers some of these multi-version
and derivative work registration issues,
<http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=SimplexGrinnell+LP+v.+Integrated+Systems+%26+Power,+Inc.&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholart>
but I'm no lawyer to try to figure out which way the court
is going. Have at it if you want.
David Kastrup
2010-05-12 20:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by David Kastrup
You have to have sufficient overlap. But it would be pointless to
demand registration of some "exact version" when the defendant has
modified the original version. Of course the plaintiff can't register
the exact version resulting from the defendant's modifications.
I don't believe that in the cases mounted by the SFLC the
defendants distributed a version they themselves modified.
Yes, but it is not relevant for the argument to hold. Of course the
court has an interest in doing no unnecessary work. That's the point of
demanding registration in the first place.

But I should think that there is a limit to the amount of mostly
pointless exact version detective work they can demand from plaintiffs.
Post by Hyman Rosen
SimplexGrinnel v. ISP considers some of these multi-version
and derivative work registration issues,
<http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=SimplexGrinnell+LP+v.+Integrated+Systems+%26+Power,+Inc.&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholart>
but I'm no lawyer to try to figure out which way the court
is going. Have at it if you want.
--
David Kastrup
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 21:03:16 UTC
Permalink
That's the point of demanding registration in the first place.
Registration is demanded by the statute, 17 USC 411:
<http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap4.html#411>
no civil action for infringement of the copyright
in any United States work shall be instituted until
preregistration or registration of the copyright
claim has been made in accordance with this title

The courts have to work out how this part of the law applies
to derivative works and to multiple versions, and I'm not a
lawyer and can't find enough information to know how they're
dealing with it.
RJack
2010-05-12 21:39:46 UTC
Permalink
That's the point of demanding registration in the first place.
<http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap4.html#411> no civil action
for infringement of the copyright in any United States work shall be
instituted until preregistration or registration of the copyright
claim has been made in accordance with this title
The courts have to work out how this part of the law applies to
derivative works and to multiple versions, and I'm not a lawyer and
can't find enough information to know how they're dealing with it.
It's perfectly clear Hyman. Congress didn't stutter when they wrote:

"§ 408 · Copyright registration in general.
(a) Registration Permissive.—At any time during the subsistence of the
first term of copyright in any published or unpublished work in which
the copyright was secured before January 1, 1978, and during the
subsistence of any copyright secured on or after that date, the OWNER of
copyright or of any exclusive right in the work may obtain registration
of the copyright claim by delivering to the Copyright Office the deposit
specified by this section, together with the application and fee
specified by sections 409 and 708. Such registration is not a
condition of copyright protection."

OWNER OWNER OWNER OWNER OWNER OWNER OWNER OWNER OWNER OWNER OWNER

Got it?

Now, review:

"§ 103 · Subject matter of copyright: Compilations and derivative works.
(b) The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to
the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished
from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply
any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such
work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope,
duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the
preexisting material."

The preexisting author and modifying author must agree in a *signed
writing* (17 USC §204) who owns the derivative work as a whole.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 21:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
OWNER
Got it?
The owner of a copyright is, barring a transfer, the author.
The owners of the copyrights in a derivative work are both the
original author and the second author, each owning copyright of
the work they have created.
Post by RJack
"§ 103
Yes, as I said above.
Post by RJack
17 USC §204
This section is irrelevant since it involves transfers of
copyright ownership and there are none in this case.
David Kastrup
2010-05-13 06:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by David Kastrup
You have to have sufficient overlap. But it would be pointless to
demand registration of some "exact version" when the defendant has
modified the original version. Of course the plaintiff can't register
the exact version resulting from the defendant's modifications.
I don't believe that in the cases mounted by the SFLC the
defendants distributed a version they themselves modified.
Yes, but it is not relevant for the argument to hold. Of course the
court has an interest in doing no unnecessary work. That's the point of
demanding registration in the first place.
But I should think that there is a limit to the amount of mostly
pointless exact version detective work they can demand from plaintiffs.
As a postscriptum: of course this is _completely_ different if the
different versions have been conveyed under different licenses (if at
all).

If the licensee has a license for 0.59 and has modified it extensively,
and the plaintiff sues for illicit use of version 0.60, of _course_ he
needs to register 0.60 and demonstrate that parts of it have been used
(and not, like in the case of non-trivial bug fixes, independently
developed).

In this case it is interesting how the defendant can bolster his claim
about having used only 0.59 code when the 0.59 code has _not_ been
registered. Possibly there is no way to enforce registration for _that_
version even though it is part of the case, but as a defense. And one
can't ask the defendant to register this version...
--
David Kastrup
RJack
2010-05-12 20:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Are you claiming that there is no code overlap between the
Actiontec distribution and Busybox v.0.60.3?
In at least some districts, courts require registration of the exact
version of the work which is the subject of the case. Had the
defendants chosen to pursue their defense instead of settling, they
could have made the argument that plaintiffs did not register the
disputed work and that therefore the case should be dismissed.
However, plaintiffs could then simply register the proper version and
re-file.
We're in the good ole *USA*...

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 20:56:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
However, plaintiffs could then simply register the proper version and
re-file.
We're in the good ole *USA*...
Yes, that is the country in which the court said:
<http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17023397710384183185>
Now that the meaning of the Bankruptcy Stipulation is
authoritatively established, ISPI is on clear notice
that it may not use SimplexGrinnell's proprietary
software beyond the limits set forth in this opinion.
Provided that SimplexGrinnell register its copyrights,
therefore, should ISPI engage in further infringement
of versions not covered by this injunction, injunctive
relief, and possible damages in significant amount, may
follow. There is thus an adequate deterrent to future
abuse by ISPI of copyrighted materials.
RJack
2010-05-12 21:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hyman Rosen
Post by RJack
Post by Hyman Rosen
However, plaintiffs could then simply register the proper version
and re-file.
We're in the good ole *USA*...
<http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17023397710384183185>
Now that the meaning of the Bankruptcy Stipulation is authoritatively
established, ISPI is on clear notice that it may not use
SimplexGrinnell's proprietary software beyond the limits set forth in
this opinion. Provided that SimplexGrinnell register its copyrights,
therefore, should ISPI engage in further infringement of versions not
covered by this injunction, injunctive relief, and possible damages
in significant amount, may follow. There is thus an adequate
deterrent to future abuse by ISPI of copyrighted materials.
So what injunction has the SFLC obtained concerning GPL code? Just show
me the injunction Hyman. Just show me the injunction.

An injunction in hand is worth two hypothetical injunctions in the future.

LMAO.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 21:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
So what injunction has the SFLC obtained concerning GPL code?
None - the standards for granting preliminary injunctions
are generally not appropriate for GPL copyright cases.
RJack
2010-05-12 21:58:13 UTC
Permalink
A grep for "Erik Andersen" in the source tree for BusyBox 0.60.3
returns the following files:

depmod.pl
autodocifier.pl
BusyBox.html
BusyBox.txt

Here is the header for depmod.pl:
---------------------------------------
"#!/usr/bin/perl -w
# vi: set ts=4:
# Copyright (c) 2001 David Schleef <***@schleef.org>
# Copyright (c) 2001 Erik Andersen <***@codepoet.org>
# Copyright (c) 2001 Stuart Hughes <***@lineo.com>
# This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it
# under the same terms as Perl itself."
---------------------------------------

Here is the mention for autodocifier.pl:

--------------------------------------------------
"This script was based on a script by Erik Andersen
<***@debian.org> which was in turn based on a script by Mark
Whitley <***@codepoet.org>"
--------------------------------------------------

How does THIS qualify Erik Andersen as the owner of BusyBox 0.60.3?

First liar doesn't have a chance anymore does he?

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 22:01:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
How does THIS qualify Erik Andersen as the owner of BusyBox 0.60.3?
By being the author of a derivative work of the combined
work which is BusyBox.
RJack
2010-05-12 15:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Terekhov
"Modified: 25.01.2010 12:19:51"
(I gather that "please call the Insignia support line at
1-877-467-4289" is a sign of perfect compliance to the GPL
As long as making such a call leads to obtaining the code, then yes,
of course.
Talk about mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooving the goalposts.

The SFLC starts out suing for damages, injunctions etc. and now
it's down to settling for listing a fucking telephone number.

I think the appropriate number is 1-800-KISS-MY-ASS.

LMAO

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 15:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
The SFLC starts out suing for damages, injunctions etc. and now
it's down to settling for listing a telephone number.
The SFLC sues when it observes copyright violation of
GPL-covered software. It has so far proved willing to
settle the lawsuits when the defendants agree to comply
with the terms of the GPL.
RJack
2010-05-12 15:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
The SFLC starts out suing for damages, injunctions etc. and now
it's down to settling for listing a telephone number.
The SFLC sues when it observes copyright violation of GPL-covered
software.
And automatically dismisses the suit rather than have a federal judge
review the GPL on the merits.
It has so far proved willing to settle the lawsuits when the
defendants agree to comply with the terms of the GPL.
Agree with what? Imaginary settlements? Just show the the
verifiable settlement agreement in lieu of SFLC bullshit
propaganda.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
David Kastrup
2010-05-12 16:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by RJack
The SFLC starts out suing for damages, injunctions etc. and now
it's down to settling for listing a telephone number.
The SFLC sues when it observes copyright violation of GPL-covered
software.
And automatically dismisses the suit rather than have a federal judge
review the GPL on the merits.
Why would a judge have to "review the GPL on the merits" on behalf of
the plaintiff? It is the defendant who claims having a license to
distribute.
Post by RJack
It has so far proved willing to settle the lawsuits when the
defendants agree to comply with the terms of the GPL.
Agree with what?
Making the GPLed source code available or cease distribution, as has so
far been the case.
Post by RJack
Imaginary settlements? Just show the the verifiable settlement
agreement in lieu of SFLC bullshit propaganda.
Sincerely,
RJack :)
--
David Kastrup
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 16:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
And automatically dismisses the suit rather than have a federal judge
review the GPL on the merits.
With no dispute, federal judges aren't going to review anything.
Post by RJack
Agree with what? Imaginary settlements?
The defendants all provide the source code for the GPL-covered
works they distribute. Classifying actual source code as an
imaginary settlement seems like a symptom of wishful thinking.
David Kastrup
2010-05-12 15:43:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by Alexander Terekhov
"Modified: 25.01.2010 12:19:51"
(I gather that "please call the Insignia support line at
1-877-467-4289" is a sign of perfect compliance to the GPL
As long as making such a call leads to obtaining the code, then yes,
of course.
Talk about mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooving the goalposts.
The SFLC starts out suing for damages, injunctions etc. and now
it's down to settling for listing a fucking telephone number.
The goal from the getgo was compliance with the terms of the GPL.
Damages are consequences to non-compliance, injunctions (stopping
distribution) similarly.

If there are no consequences for non-compliance, you can't elicit
compliance. The state at the time of the complaint was non-compliance,
and that state is what the court can be asked to act on.

In short: the goalposts did not move at all, but to score, you have to
get the ball into court in the first place if it is not already sitting
in the goal.
Post by RJack
I think the appropriate number is 1-800-KISS-MY-ASS.
For you it is all the same as you choose to make an ass out of yourself.
--
David Kastrup
RJack
2010-05-12 16:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by RJack
"Modified: 25.01.2010 12:19:51" (I gather that "please call the
Insignia support line at 1-877-467-4289" is a sign of perfect
compliance to the GPL
As long as making such a call leads to obtaining the code, then
yes, of course.
Talk about mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooving the goalposts.
The SFLC starts out suing for damages, injunctions etc. and now
it's down to settling for listing a fucking telephone number.
The goal from the getgo was compliance with the terms of the GPL.
Damages are consequences to non-compliance, injunctions (stopping
distribution) similarly.
If there are no consequences for non-compliance, you can't elicit
compliance. The state at the time of the complaint was
non-compliance, and that state is what the court can be asked to act
on.
In short: the goalposts did not move at all, but to score, you have
to get the ball into court in the first place if it is not already
sitting in the goal.
Post by RJack
I think the appropriate number is 1-800-KISS-MY-ASS.
For you it is all the same as you choose to make an ass out of
yourself.
At least I didn't register a derivative work (BusyBox v.0.60.3) that I
clearly don't own:

http://perens.com/blog/d/2009/12/15/23/

and then fraudulently sue for copyright infringement in federal court.

LMAO

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 16:19:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
At least I didn't register a derivative work (BusyBox v.0.60.3) that I
http://perens.com/blog/d/2009/12/15/23/
and then fraudulently sue for copyright infringement in federal court.
Erik Anderson is a copyright holder in BusyBox since he has
written portions of it. Registering copyright merely affirms
his rights, but does not affect the ownership rights of others:

<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gaiman_v._McFarlane>
McFarlane’s registrations no more revealed an intent to claim
copyright in Gaiman’s contributions, as distinct from McFarlane’s
own contributions as compiler and illustrator, than the copyright
notices did. The significance of registration is that it is a
prerequisite to a suit to enforce a copyright.
RJack
2010-05-12 16:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
At least I didn't register a derivative work (BusyBox v.0.60.3)
that I clearly don't own: http://perens.com/blog/d/2009/12/15/23/
and then fraudulently sue for copyright infringement in federal court.
Erik Anderson is a copyright holder in BusyBox since he has written
portions of it.
Absolutely not true. Erik Andersen may hold copyright in some
contributed modifying code in a derivative work but he does not own any
exclusive rights in "BusyBox 0.60.3." as a registered work.


"When an original author and an author of a derivative work are
different, their respective rights are generally addressed by a contract
between them.[24] In these situations, it is clear that two works have
been created, requiring separate copyright registrations to preserve
those rights in court."
http://www.oblon.com/media/index.php?id=41#_ednref24

Sincerely,
RJack :)
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 16:55:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Absolutely not true. Erik Andersen may hold copyright in some
contributed modifying code in a derivative work but he does not own any
exclusive rights in "BusyBox 0.60.3." as a registered work.
Erik Anderson created a derivative work through his changes,
and he is therefore a copyright owner of this work. Creators
of derivative works own copyright in those works.
Post by RJack
"When an original author and an author of a derivative work are
different, their respective rights are generally addressed by a contract
between them.[24] In these situations, it is clear that two works have
been created, requiring separate copyright registrations to preserve
those rights in court."
http://www.oblon.com/media/index.php?id=41#_ednref24
Correct. In the case of BusyBox, the agreement that replaces the
contract mentioned by this excerpt is the GPL, and if there were
a dispute between the prior authors and Erik Anderson, the prior
authors would need to register their version in order to sue. But
there is no copyright dispute between these authors (except that
one of the previous authors does not care to sue to protect his
copyright), so this is irrelevant. Erik Anderson registered a
version in which he holds copyright to sue infringers of that
copyright.
Alexander Terekhov
2010-05-12 18:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Hyman Rosen wrote:

[...]
the agreement that replaces the contract . . .
LOL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract

Stop being utter idiot Hyman.

regards,
alexander.

P.S. "Every computer program in the world, BusyBox included, exceeds the
originality standards required by copyright law."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

P.P.S. "Of course correlation implies causation! Without this
fundamental principle, no science would ever make any progress."

Hyman Rosen <***@mail.com> The Silliest GPL 'Advocate'

--
http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
(GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
too, whereas GNU cannot.)
RJack
2010-05-12 20:03:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Absolutely not true. Erik Andersen may hold copyright in some
contributed modifying code in a derivative work but he does not own
any exclusive rights in "BusyBox 0.60.3." as a registered work.
Erik Anderson created a derivative work through his changes, and he
is therefore a copyright owner of this work. Creators of derivative
works own copyright in those works.
Post by RJack
"When an original author and an author of a derivative work are
different, their respective rights are generally addressed by a
contract between them.[24] In these situations, it is clear that
two works have been created, requiring separate copyright
registrations to preserve those rights in court."
http://www.oblon.com/media/index.php?id=41#_ednref24
Correct. In the case of BusyBox, the agreement that replaces the
contract mentioned by this excerpt is the GPL, and if there were a
dispute between the prior authors and Erik Anderson, the prior
authors would need to register their version in order to sue. But
there is no copyright dispute between these authors (except that one
of the previous authors does not care to sue to protect his
copyright), so this is irrelevant. Erik Anderson registered a version
in which he holds copyright to sue infringers of that copyright.
Complete nonsense. The GPL license is a nonexclusive license and cannot
effect ownership of *any* copyrights.

"17 USC sec. 101.
A “transfer of copyright ownership” is an assignment, mortgage,
exclusive license, or any other conveyance, alienation, or hypothecation
of a copyright or of any of the exclusive rights comprised in a
copyright, whether or not it is limited in time or place of effect, but
not including a nonexclusive license"

Sincerely,
RJack :)
David Kastrup
2010-05-12 20:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
Post by RJack
Absolutely not true. Erik Andersen may hold copyright in some
contributed modifying code in a derivative work but he does not own
any exclusive rights in "BusyBox 0.60.3." as a registered work.
Erik Anderson created a derivative work through his changes, and he
is therefore a copyright owner of this work. Creators of derivative
works own copyright in those works.
Post by RJack
"When an original author and an author of a derivative work are
different, their respective rights are generally addressed by a
contract between them.[24] In these situations, it is clear that
two works have been created, requiring separate copyright
registrations to preserve those rights in court."
http://www.oblon.com/media/index.php?id=41#_ednref24
Correct. In the case of BusyBox, the agreement that replaces the
contract mentioned by this excerpt is the GPL, and if there were a
dispute between the prior authors and Erik Anderson, the prior
authors would need to register their version in order to sue. But
there is no copyright dispute between these authors (except that one
of the previous authors does not care to sue to protect his
copyright), so this is irrelevant. Erik Anderson registered a
version
in which he holds copyright to sue infringers of that copyright.
Complete nonsense. The GPL license is a nonexclusive license and cannot
effect ownership of *any* copyrights.
You are confused. Most certainly the GPL does not affect ownership.
But it affects what the respective owners of copyrighted parts of the
whole may be permitted to actually do with that whole.

So yes: respective rights (mostly usage and sublicensing rights) _are_
addressed by the GPL as a legal arrangement, but that does not mean that
ownership rights are affected or moved.

Of course it is your privilege to not understand the difference and go
parading your ignorance around for the general amusement.
--
David Kastrup
Hyman Rosen
2010-05-12 20:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJack
The GPL license is a nonexclusive license and cannot
effect ownership of *any* copyrights.
Well, of course. Ownership of copyright is determined by
copyright law. The GPL is an expression on the part of
the copyright owners on what others may do with the works.
Some of those permissions serve to allow others to become
copyright owners, because they are allowed to create
derivative works.
RJack
2010-05-12 20:28:34 UTC
Permalink
The GPL license is a nonexclusive license and cannot effect
ownership of *any* copyrights.
Well, of course. Ownership of copyright is determined by copyright
law. The GPL is an expression on the part of the copyright owners on
what others may do with the works. Some of those permissions serve to
allow others to become copyright owners, because they are allowed to
create derivative works.
Take your meds Hyman -- you're hallucinating.

Sincerely,
RJack :)
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